As you may know, Modern Reformation magazine is dedicating its 2010 issues to the topic of Scripture, and the March/April edition was just delivered to my door yesterday (and by the way, hats off to my pal and fellow Upper Crust Theological Society founding member, Ryan Glomsrud, who is the new executive editor).The lead article, as always, is by Michael Horton and is called “God’s Word in Human Words: The Inspiration of Scripture.” As is to be expected, the piece was very helpful and informative, but my point here is not to recap the whole thing. Rather, I want to open up for discussion a couple paragraphs from the article which I found interesting and provocative. Horton writes:
Reacting against the practical anarchy of Protestant individualism in our day, the pendulum is swinging in the direction of the assimilation of Scripture to the church (or the "faith community"). Yet, as Calvin noted long ago, in spite of their obvious differences, radical Protestant enthusiasm and Roman Catholic theories of the church as the mother of Scripture share surprising similarities. They are simply two ways of reducing God's speech to human speech, whether that of the pious believer or the holy church. "The description of the canon as a creation of the church is not in the least a uniquely Roman Catholic one," John Webster has noted.
Despite its association with Counter-Reformation polemics, Grenz and Franke repeat the increasingly fashionable refrain among Protestants that the Bible is the church's book. "The [faith] community precedes the production of the scriptural texts and is responsible for their content and for the identification of particular texts for inclusion in an authoritative canon to which it has chosen to make itself accountable" (emphasis added). At least the way this is stated, the impression could be given that the church is sovereign in this matter: Scripture is authoritative canon because the church has decided to treat it as such. They admit that this "leads to a broader concept of inspiration." On one hand, Scripture constitutes the church. "On the other hand, it is itself derived from that community and its authority."
Now, I think Horton and Mathison would see eye-to-eye on most issues relating to Scripture, and the point Horton is making in this article is simply that, ultimately, the Bible is God’s Book, and that any attempt to subordinate it, its contents, its canonical status, or its authority to the sovereign individual or a sovereign Church is to undermine that other Reformation slogan, Sola Gratia.
Anyway, I’d be curious to hear your thoughts on Horton’s points. For my part, I find the line he draws connecting Sola Scriptura and Sola Gratia very insightful, not to mention challenging to those who would deny one or the other.

Jason,
ReplyDeleteI will keep it short, as usual. Here is something to ponder:Christ gave us the Canon through a secondary cause, his visible Body on Earth, the RCC. Also, Christ has given to his Body, the Church, the gift of infallibility. Horton disagrees with Mathison?? OK, using S.S., how do they get out of this dilemma?? Also, try and read the Catholic Church's critique of S.S., examples:More vs Bugenhagen, Tyndale, Cardinal Wiseman's lectures, De Sales, Newman,Oerestes Brownson,St.John Fisher,Cardinal Cajetan's writing against Luther.Best bit is to buy a Library card at Seattle University,I guess around $100-200.They should have all those books or they threw'em all away. I will add more later.
Cheers! I'am not a Limey. Also, Pat Madrid.
Jason,
ReplyDeleteI have a lot of respect for Michael Horton, but I don't understand how he can still advance Calvin's strawman of the Catholic conception of the relation of the Church to the canon. Claiming that the Church has the authority to determine which books are canonical, does not reduce "God's speech to human speech". Otherwise, every time the Apostles preached, they would have been reducing God's speech (i.e. Christ's words) to human speech. The authority possessed by a steward, does not ipso facto reduce that of which he has stewardship to or below his level of authority. Mary and Joseph had stewardship over baby Jesus. But that didn't reduce baby Jesus to a mere human. Surely Michael knows and understands this, and even believes this. So why keep trotting out the strawman based on a false dilemma (i.e. either the Church has authority over Scripture, reducing Scripture to mere human speech, or the Church has no authority over Scripture)? Surely he is aware of the third position. Scripture is God's Word written, but the Church has been given the (subordinate) authority of a steward over Scripture, by which authority she can say which books belong to the canon, and how these books should be interpreted.
I agree about the seeming incompatibility of Horton and Mathison's positions here. Perhaps you can get them to comment here, to clarify this.
Your most interesting point (to me) was your statement about sola gratia. "[T]he point Horton is making in this article is simply that, ultimately, the Bible is God’s Book, and that any attempt to subordinate it, its contents, its canonical status, or its authority to the sovereign individual or a sovereign Church is to undermine that other Reformation slogan, Sola Gratia."
The reason for that, I presume, is that if the Church has a role, in our salvation, then our salvation is not sola gratia. Is that how you are connecting his claim about the relation of Church and Scripture, to sola gratia?
In the peace of Christ,
- Bryan
Rob Bell,
ReplyDeleteChrist gave us the Canon through a secondary cause, his visible Body on Earth, the RCC. Also, Christ has given to his Body, the Church, the gift of infallibility.
Yes, and (setting aside your question-begging identification of the fourth-century church with the RCC) Reformed theology also recognizes what you seem to be saying, namely, that the church has a derivative and secondary authority. But you then leap to another question-begger, namely, that the church is therefore infallible. I don't see how that is a required result of your first statement.
Horton disagrees with Mathison?? OK, using S.S., how do they get out of this dilemma??
Whoops, didn't mean to leave that last bit in there.
ReplyDeleteWhich dilemma, exactly, are you referring to?
Bryan,
ReplyDeleteI understand your point about a steward's authority not diminishing that of the master. We get that, and it's a good answer, at least generally.
But the problem comes in when we apply it specifically. You say that the apostles' preaching didn't obscure Jesus' words, and I agree. But doesn't that invite the question of whether or not their preaching was consistent or inconsistent with Jesus' words (an important detail, to be sure)? We all believe it was perfectly consistent, in which case there is no problem.
But from our side of the table, when the church argues for the authority to define dogmas that have little to no biblical warrant (such as the assumption of the BVM), that's when we would say that Rome is arrogating to itself power that doesn't belong to it. Hence the claim that the church is a servant of Scripture rings hollow in our ears.
Jason,
ReplyDeleteSurely scripture is both the Church’s book as well as God's book albeit in differing ways, that is, scripture is the Church's book mediatorially whilst it is God's magisterially. So scripture is authoritative canon because the church recognises that God speaks through it.
Of course, whilst I do like Horton's approach I do find it more philosophical than dealing with the messy facts. So, for example, I am yet to find him setting out in detail why the Protestant canon is the correct one etc.
JJS --
ReplyDeleteI haven't gotten my copy yet -- you're closer to CA than I am -- but from the bit you quoted, it looked like Horton is critiquing Grenz & Franke's view of the church as sovereign over Scripture, not necessarily Mathison's view about subordinate-but-authoritative interpretation by the church. I'd want to know if & how Grenz/Franke's view differs from Mathison's.
pb
Jason,
ReplyDeleteI Just quickly skimmed over Mike's article. You'd have to ask him to be sure, but as far as I can tell, he's not directly addressing what I'm talking about in SOSS. Looks like he's addressing the views of men like Grenz and Franke, which are substantially different from my views.
Blessings,
Keith Mathison
The question I always want answered in this type of discussion is, which Church, exactly is "the church" being referred to?
ReplyDeleteIs it the Orthodox Church with their 73+ book canon?
The Catholic Church with its 73 book canon?
Or one of the Protestant churches with their 66 book canon?
And since I guess the assumption is that the Protestant canon is the one that "the church" in the early centuries chose (or should have chosen), which Protestant faith community is the one that is faithfully teaching the true interpretation of the Scriptures?
I realize some of this may be considered off-topic and I don't want to derail the thread, but how do I know which Church is "the church" being discussed here?
Yhwhmlk,
ReplyDeleteOf course, whilst I do like Horton's approach I do find it more philosophical than dealing with the messy facts. So, for example, I am yet to find him setting out in detail why the Protestant canon is the correct one etc.
My guess is that the whole canon issue will be dealt with in more detail over the course of the next four issues, so stay tuned.
I have heard it said that no church father held to our 66-book canon, but then the reply was given that very few of them held to the exact 73-book canon of the current Catholic Church, either. So if Rome can define it officially at Trent, I don't see why we can't do it at Westminster Abbey.
Paige and Keith,
ReplyDelete... but from the bit you quoted, it looked like Horton is critiquing Grenz & Franke's view of the church as sovereign over Scripture, not necessarily Mathison's view about subordinate-but-authoritative interpretation by the church. I'd want to know if & how Grenz/Franke's view differs from Mathison's.
... as far as I can tell, he's not directly addressing what I'm talking about in SOSS. Looks like he's addressing the views of men like Grenz and Franke, which are substantially different from my views.
I agree, which is why I pointed out that you both actually see pretty much eye-to-eye on the issue. If the article lacks anything, it's a clarifying paragraph on this, and in addition, right after the part where he says that fundamentalists and Catholics are guilty of the same thing, he needs to quote a Catholic source to demonstrate this, in addition to the quote from Grenz and Franke.
Devin,
ReplyDeleteThe question I always want answered in this type of discussion is, which Church, exactly is "the church" being referred to?
You know, the one that agrees with me and everything I say.
Kidding aside, that's a good question that I think needs to be addressed in some detail, otherwise Catholics will continue to put words like the above into Protestants' mouths.
And since I guess the assumption is that the Protestant canon is the one that "the church" in the early centuries chose (or should have chosen), which Protestant faith community is the one that is faithfully teaching the true interpretation of the Scriptures?
On the Protestant canon, the disagreement obviously only exists over the OT. Our view is that the Jews of the first century rejected the deuterocanonicals (as seemingly did Jesus when he listed the history of God's OT people as spanning from Abel to Zechariah), so therefore we do, too.
And of course, we don't hold to Rome's insistence that every single pulpit be homogenous and in perfect accord with Scripture on every detail, so we allow for error across denominations that differs in degree from heresy.
On the Protestant canon, the disagreement obviously only exists over the OT. Our view is that the Jews of the first century rejected the deuterocanonicals (as seemingly did Jesus when he listed the history of God's OT people as spanning from Abel to Zechariah), so therefore we do, too.
ReplyDeleteThe question I always want answered in this type of discussion is, Why isn't Jesus's understanding of the OT canon good enough to be authoritative?
Devin Rose said...
ReplyDeleteThe question I always want answered in this type of discussion is, which Church, exactly is "the church" being referred to?
Since Protestant confessions were never seen as "infallibly binding," I don't see a problem with national assemblies -- "regional synods," if you will -- setting forth the Reformed confessions as they did.
Tell us, for example, what is lacking in the Westminster Standards as a guide for "faith and morals"?
Jason,
ReplyDeleteIf I may add to what Bryan has stated. It strikes me that the fatal flaw of Mike's position is that it attempts to tear asunder the Church and her authority given by Christ from Scripture. Both Scripture and the Church are given by Christ and as such have Divine Authority. Christ stated "He who hears you hears Me". He gave them authority to forgive and retain sins in His name and He said to a man, Simon, in changing his name to Peter, that upon this rock I will build My Church. Paul also pointed to the Church and not the Scripture as the pillar and ground of the truth.
I fail to see how Mike can say that the Church has reduced Scripture to human speech. Is not Mike at risk of reducing the Church to a mere human institution? Is he not at risk of making the Church nothing more than a collection of like minded individuals who happen to share some similar interpretive and doctrinal ideas? This is why, I think, the great difficulty for Calvin and his heirs is to speak meaningfully about the Church. When Calvin says that it is always grave to leave the Church and quotes approvingly that no man can have God for his Father who does not have the Church for his Mother, the legitimate question is, "on what basis then did you leave the Church?"
Robert Jenson himself says, "For outside the church, no such entity as the Christian Bible has any reason to exist. It is not merely that exegesis of the Bible is likely to be mistaken in one way or another when done outside the church; interpretation of the Bible outside the church must be arbitrary, uncontrollable, and finally moot." Of course, Jenson too has to ask himself, if that is the case, then to which Church should he turn.
Jason,
ReplyDeleteI will add more about this topic later,but really where is SS found in the Bible? Yes, you've heard it a million times, but how come Calvinists can
never give a straight answer? Let me remind you, all the Reformers taught that the 5 Solas were explicitly found in scripture. Meaning the solas are doctrines nec. for faith and morals, which the early Church abandoned around 800AD.(ya, right.). Right now I am reading Muller's PRRD, vol.2.
I will add more later.
Tom,
ReplyDeleteIt strikes me that the fatal flaw of Mike's position is that it attempts to tear asunder the Church and her authority given by Christ from Scripture. Both Scripture and the Church are given by Christ and as such have Divine Authority. Christ stated "He who hears you hears Me". He gave them authority to forgive and retain sins in His name and He said to a man, Simon, in changing his name to Peter, that upon this rock I will build My Church. Paul also pointed to the Church and not the Scripture as the pillar and ground of the truth.
Yes, and Horton would agree with all that. But the issue for us is, “What happens when the Church departs from what Scripture teaches?” And no, it’s not just Horton and three other people who are holding the Church hostage to our private interpretation of Scripture, but it is literally millions of people who, over the past 500 years, have seen a serious discrepancy when comparing the Bible’s teaching on various topics, and what Rome says about those topics. So your objections seems to beg the question since you assume that Catholic ecclesiology is true and Catholic teaching is therefore correct.
I fail to see how Mike can say that the Church has reduced Scripture to human speech. Is not Mike at risk of reducing the Church to a mere human institution? Is he not at risk of making the Church nothing more than a collection of like minded individuals who happen to share some similar interpretive and doctrinal ideas?
That’s a good question. I will admit that it’s frustrating the way my side of the aisle sometimes treats church membership like a Blockbuster account that can be taken about as seriously. But while we’re admitting stuff, can you see how Rome’s de fide pronouncements make her attitude toward Scripture appear to us?
This is why, I think, the great difficulty for Calvin and his heirs is to speak meaningfully about the Church. When Calvin says that it is always grave to leave the Church and quotes approvingly that no man can have God for his Father who does not have the Church for his Mother, the legitimate question is, "on what basis then did you leave the Church?"
Yeah, when I read Book IV I do scratch my head a bit in bemusement. But I completely understand Calvin’s point and sympathize with it. It’s OK to walk away from a church that departs from the faith, just as it was OK for believing Jews to forsake Judaism for Christianity. Whether that departure has occurred is the real question, though, not Calvin’s willingness to leave Rome and then keep people in Geneva.
Rob Bell (I get a kick out of calling you that),
ReplyDelete... where is SS found in the Bible? Yes, you've heard it a million times, but how come Calvinists can never give a straight answer?
I think a case can be made that is less of a prooftexting approach (which is somewhat question-begging), and more philosophical. For example, if we understand what Scripture actually is, namely, God's covenant charter that creates, constitutes, and governs his people, and further, that it is the very word of God that exhales the new creation even as the same creative word spoke the old one into existence, well, when you put it like that, it sure seems to follow that Scripture should have primacy over its interpreters, however heaven-sent.
Robert Bellarmine: How did Jesus know the extent of the Old Testament canon?
ReplyDeleteRobert Bellarmine: Why do Catholics never cite this quote from Irenaeus?
ReplyDeleteThe Lord of all gave his apostles the power of the Gospel, and by them we have known the truth, that is, the teaching of the Son of God. To THEM the Lord said, “He who hears you hears me, and he who despises me and Him who sent me” (Luke 10:16).
For we have known the “economy” for our salvation only through those through whom the Gospel came to us; and WHAT THEY FIRST PREACHED THEY LATER, by God’s will, TRANSMITTED TO US IN THE SCRIPTURES SO THAT WOULD BE THE FOUNDATION AND PILLAR OF OUR FAITH (1 Tim. 3:15).
It is not right to say that they preached before they had perfect knowledge, as some venture to say, boasting that they are correctors of the apostles. For after our Lord arose from the dead and they were clad with power from on high by the coming of the Holy Spirit, THEY WERE FILLED CONCERNING EVERYTHING AND HAD PERFECT KNOWLEDGE. They went forth to the ends of the earth, proclaiming the news of the good gifts to us from God and announcing heavenly peace to men. Collectively and individually they had the Gospel of God.
Thus Matthew published among the Hebrews a gospel written in their language, at the time when Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome and founding the church there. After their death Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, himself delivered to us in writing what had been announced by Peter. Luke, the follower of Paul, put down in a book the Gospel preached by him. Later John the Lord’s disciple, who reclined on his bosom, himself published the Gospel while staying at Ephesus in Asia.
Thus the TRADITION OF THE APOSTLES, manifest in the whole world, is present in EVERY CHURCH [in the form of the Scriptures] to be perceived by all who wish to see the truth.
(“Irenaeus of Lyons,” “Against Heresies,” from the “Prospectus for Book III “and 3.1, Robert M. Grant, pg.. 123-124. Emphasis supplied.)
Jason,
ReplyDeleteIf you look at it historically,yes, Christ has given us the canon of scriptures-through a secondary cause-which he has created in time, called the Catholic Church. The way you proved SS for me, was not done during the 16th and 17th Century. The way they did it was:"All the solas must found in scripture. SS is an objective doctrine that can be found explicitly in scripture." American Calvinists don't go about proving SS this way anymore,because of the historical and logical problems and the many,many critiques from Roman apologists. You should check out Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange. He had Pope John paul as a student. He said of him "You write much, but say little."
More later.
Irenaeus on the principle of "Scripture interprets Scripture:
ReplyDeleteIf, then, as we have said, we leave certain questions to God, we shall preserve our faith and remain free from peril. All Scripture, given to us by God, will be found consistent. The parables will agree with the clear statements and the clear passages will explain the parables. Through the polyphony of the texts a single harmonious melody will sound in us, praising in hymns the God who made everything.
(“Irenaeus of Lyons,” “Against Heresies,” 2.28.3, Robert M. Grant translation, pg. 118. Emphasis supplied.)
Irenaeus on the principle of "Scripture interprets Scripture:
ReplyDeleteIf, then, as we have said, we leave certain questions to God, we shall preserve our faith and remain free from peril. All Scripture, given to us by God, will be found consistent. The parables will agree with the clear statements and the clear passages will explain the parables. Through the polyphony of the texts a single harmonious melody will sound in us, praising in hymns the God who made everything.
(“Irenaeus of Lyons,” “Against Heresies,” 2.28.3, Robert M. Grant translation, pg. 118. Emphasis supplied.)
All Scripture, given to us by God, will be found consistent
ReplyDelete'US" is the Church. Irenaeus of Lyons had no concept of denominationalism.
“Those, therefore, who desert the preaching of the Church, call in question the knowledge of the holy presbyters, not taking into consideration of how much greater consequence is a religious man, even in a private station, than a blasphemous and impudent sophist. Now, such are all the heretics, and those who imagine that they have hit upon something more beyond the truth, so that by following those things already mentioned, proceeding on their way variously, in harmoniously, and foolishly, not keeping always to the same opinions with regard to the same things, as blind men are led by the blind, they shall deservedly fall into the ditch of ignorance lying in their path, ever seeking and never finding out the truth. It behooves us, therefore, to avoid their doctrines, and to take careful heed lest we suffer any injury from them; but to flee to the Church, and be brought up in her bosom, and be nourished with the Lord's Scriptures."
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5,20:2 (A.D. 180).
Irenaeus is calling a specific group of people, with specific teachings, "heretics". These are the "doctrines" that need to be avoided. For example, "For you to suggest that today's Protestants have anything to do with those groups is very much an anachronism.
ReplyDeleteAs for his comment, "flee to the church, and be brought up in her bosom, and be nourished with the Lord's Scriptures," Calvin is in complete agreement: "He instituted "pastors and teachers" through whose lips he might teach his own; he furnished them with authority; finally, he omitted nothing that might make for holy agreement of faith and for right order."
Calvin is in further agreement with Irenaeus, at a point where you can't be: The Apostles, who wrote their entire message down in the Scriptures, "wanted those whom they left as successors, and to whom they transmitted their own position of teaching, to be perfect and blameless in every respect. If these men acted rightly, it would be a great benefit, while if they failed it would be the greatest calamity."
As it turns out, the "successors" of Peter, upon whom the authority of your whole church relies, were the most corrupt "succession" of individuals who ever lived. And Calvin warns his reader of precisely how this affected "Holy Mother Church": "we are to call back godly readers from those corruptions by which Satan, in the papacy, has polluted everything God had appointed for our salvation." (Institutes 4.1.1.)
That's really how all of this ties together.
"True knowledge is that which consists in the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither receiving addition nor suffering curtailment in the truths which she believes; and it consists in reading the word of God without falsification, and a lawful and diligent exposition in harmony with the Scriptures, both without danger and without blasphemy; and above all, it consists in the pre-eminent gift of love, which is more precious than knowledge, more glorious than prophecy, and which excels all the other gifts of God."
ReplyDeleteIrenaeus, Against Heresies, 4:33:8 (A.D. 180).
OK everyone, before this degenerates into a ECF prooftext war, let me suggest that, when one of you quotes Irenaeus or some other father, that you also provide some explanation of what the quotation is intended to prove. In addition to that, it would be helpful if you also try to refute (or better explain) the citation provided by your opponent in order to refute you.
ReplyDeleteOtherwise, we just give the impression that the fathers were Catholic on odd-numbered days and Protestants on even-numbered ones.
Fair enough JJS.
ReplyDeleteIn brief, Irenaeus conception of the church included the succession of the bishops. Thus, when he says that scripture was given to 'us' he means not just variant groups of people claiming to be the church but the church that was marked by the succession of the bishops.
So, when we read John Bugay's Irenaeus quote about scripture being given to 'us' we say 'amen.' And like Irenaues, we should be brought up in the bosom of the church to locate the true doctrine of the apostles.
OK, so are you saying what many Catholics seem to affirm, namely, that you can agree with all of our ECF quotations, but we can't agree with all of yours?
ReplyDeleteAnd if so, then John: Why don't you provide some citations that you are certain Blogahon cannot agree with?
OK, so are you saying what many Catholics seem to affirm, namely, that you can agree with all of our ECF quotations, but we can't agree with all of yours?
ReplyDeleteNo. I am really just saying that the for the ECFs, on this topic, scripture is never removed from the Church.
A good summary of my point regarding the ECFs on this topic:
"Several publications by evangelicals have argued that the doctrine of sola scriptura was practiced, though implicitly, in the hermeneutical thinking of the early church. Such an argument is using a very specific agenda for the reappropriation of the early church: reading the ancient Fathers through the leans of post-Reformational Protestantis...Scripture can never stand completely independent of the ancient consensus of the church’s teaching without serious hermeneutical difficulties...the real question, as the patristic age discovered, is, Which tradition will we use to interpret the Bible?"
- D. H. Williams, Retrieving the Tradition & Renewing Evangelicalism
And, I have no doubt that John can post quotations from ECFs that I cannot agree with but I don't think this is the point. My point is that we know that Irenaeus did indeed have a conception of church that included sacramental succession of the bishops and that it was only within this church that the faith was taught.
John can disagree with Irenaeus on this point but it won't change the fact that this is what Irenaeus thought.
Mr. Jason,
ReplyDeleteI think you just opened up a big can of worms. About the "proof texting" thing, dont you think you are being a bit inconsistent?? When you talk about the FV, you're giving prooftexts right and left. When Horton is writing about extr. imputation with the NPOP,FV folks, he's giving out verses for free. But, when he talks to Catholics about SS, he says "Well, Pat prooftexting scripture will not get us anywhere." And I go, huh?
Rob Bell,
ReplyDeleteWhat I said about prooftexting, if you read it, was concerning quoting the early church fathers. What I said was that it will do us no good to cite seemingly contradictory passages back and forth without any commentary.
Now if you're referring to what I said about SS being a kind of a priori (and I think this is what you're referring to), my point is simply that certain fundamental things are often implicit (like paedobaptism). You guys use this approach all the time, saying things like, "Well, even though I can't offer a deductive argument for papal infallibility, I can show that when you assume it and then take it out for a test drive, it makes the most sense of the evidence."
That's the kind of approach I was talking about.
Jason summarizing Horton: ... the point Horton is making in this article is simply that, ultimately, the Bible is God’s Book, and that any attempt to subordinate it, its contents, its canonical status, or its authority to the sovereign individual or a sovereign Church is to undermine that other Reformation slogan, Sola Gratia.
ReplyDeleteWithout having read the article other than the selection you gave, I've always had this sense. On the contrary, I think we need to look with caution at such statements as this one:
"Scripture can never stand completely independent of the ancient consensus of the church’s teaching without serious hermeneutical difficulties..."
This second statement is highly disagreeable. Church history is just littered with the church settling upon a wrong understanding, and then letting a doctrine and dogma evolve around it, and before you know it, you have a full-blown corruption.
One particularly egregious case is the development of "penance."
The church develops a practice, and a mistranslation in Scripture is used to support it, and the mistranslation and the mutant practice become mutually supporting.
T.F. Torrance did an extremely thorough examination of the concept of "grace" through the OT, in Greek culture, and in the New Testament. It was a totally new concept that God's grace was extended to sinners. (Whereas in the Greek culture and to a large extent in the Jewish culture of the day, "grace" was extended to those who earned it.
Torrance traces this loss of understanding of grace (and a similar increase in a works-based legalism) through each of the Apostolic Fathers, including Clement, the Didache, Barnabas, Irenaeus, and others.
Instead of being a "free gift" to sinners, grace became something "given by God to those who worthily strive after righteousness." It was no longer the grace of the New Testament.
We've seen this pattern throughout church history in so many ways. Not only in the apostolic fathers. In the tendencies of Pelagianism. Of Arminianism. The moralism of Baxter. The Federal Vision.
This is just one thread of thinking "with the church" that requires us to reject a hermeneutic that says we need to "think with the church." When the church says, "we own the Scriptures, only our interpretation is valid."
No, what God intends to say is the valid interpretation.
I produced Irenaeus, a highly respected church father of the late second century, articulating what is essentially a Protestant view of Scripture, that the Apostles, by God’s will, transmitted to us in the scriptures what they had taught in person, so that [the Scriptures] would be the foundation and pillar of our faith (1 tim. 3:15).
And beyond this, Irenaeus was saying that Scripture understands Scripture.
Not everyone obtained mutant understandings. Some, like Irenaus, generally understood. But what he understood was either forgotten or surpressed by "the consensus."
Horton was right. The Scriptures do not belong to the church. The minute the church thinks it is the master of the Scriptures (in any way), is the minute the problems begin.
what I found especially striking was Horton’s apparent denial of what has become one of Keith Mathison’s primary talking points when addressing the topic of Scripture and its authority, namely, that “the Bible is the Church’s Book.” According to Mathison, Scripture is the Church’s Book and is to be interpreted in and by the Church according to the regula fidei (the rule of faith, which Mathison says is primarily the Apostles’ and Nicene Creeds).
ReplyDeleteBy the way, just because Mathison has written a book on the subject, does not mean it's a good book. Turretinfan has provided a fairly thorough critique of Mathison's book, here:
http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2009/12/principled-distinctions-again-this-time.html
First, Mathison's interpretive authority is not simply the individual, but the individual looking through the grid of the ecumenical creeds. Thus, there is a principle with respect to the ultimate holder of interpretive authority that distinguishes Mathison's view from solo scriptura in which the creeds are not binding.
Second, Mathison's methodology is functionally the same as the methodology of the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox positions, with respect to the way in which the individual interprets the Scripture. In Mathison's, the RC's and the EO's positions, the individual is not permitted interpret Scripture in any way contrary to the rule of faith. Thus, if Mathison's position shares a commonality with solo scriptura as to the ultimate holder of interpretive authority, then so do the RC and EO positions, in which case, who cares.
Third, it may be objected that Mathison's methodology is submission to a grid that one has selected based on what one already agrees with, and that one will abandon if one ceases to agree with it. However, of course, the same is true of any grid - whether Mathison's or the RC or EO. One assents to the grid as a requirement for communion, and one who rejects the grid is (at least in theory) excommunicated. In other words, the objection that because the submission to the grid is voluntary, it is not true submission, is an invalid objection.
Fourth, the absence of a binding extrinsic hermeneutic grid is not the chief or main problem of solo scriptura. Accordingly, the fact that neither sola scriptura (in the Reformed sense as distinct from Mathison's sense) nor solo scriptura has such a grid is a commonality that does not cause us concern.
Fifth, the absence of a binding extrinsic hermeneutic grid does not preclude the presence of a binding intrinsic hermeneutic grid. In other words, Scripture interprets Scripture as both the Reformers and the early church fathers taught. Consequently, Scriptures must be understood harmoniously with one another, the more clear helping us to understand the less clear. Thus, the absence of a binding extrinsic hermeneutic grid does not mean the death of hermeneutics.
Jason,
ReplyDeleteWhat you are saying is that SS is implicit somewhere in the Bible? Yes? And No, we can offer a deductive reason for Church Infallibility. What do you think about Horton prooftext. about some groups and not prooftext. with other groups,Catholics?? More Later.
........Carry on.
Reformation500,
ReplyDeleteYou ask "Why isn't Jesus's understanding of the OT canon good enough to be authoritative?" The problem is that there was no OT canon in the first half of 1 C.E. within the various 2nd Temple Judaisms that were around. If the OT canon had been settled we really would not have seen the debates between Jerome and Augustine in 4 C.E.
yhwhmlk said...
ReplyDeleteReformation500, You ask "Why isn't Jesus's understanding of the OT canon good enough to be authoritative?" The problem is that there was no OT canon in the first half of 1 C.E. within the various 2nd Temple Judaisms that were around. If the OT canon had been settled we really would not have seen the debates between Jerome and Augustine in 4 C.E.
Whatever your vague notions of "the various 2nd Temple Judaisms" believed, Jesus himself, and Luke and the apostles following him, did have a clear understanding of what "all the Scriptures" taught.
He said to them, "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?" And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.
He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."
(from Luke 24)
I'm tempted to say that (a) you read too many comic books, and (b) you allow it to cloud your thinking about these things.
Allowing the traditions of "2nd Temple Judaism" to take precedence over God's clear mandates for Scriptures is one of the key features of what's called "the New Perspective on Paul." This "perspective" does not take into account that there ARE canonical differences between "The Scriptures" and other forms of literature from that period.
Guy Waters, in his work on the NPP, says, "This functional absence of such distinctions within this literature as the Old Testament, the Apocrypha and noncanonical literature surfaces especially in Wright's construction of Judaism. One has the impression that Second Temple writings informed and constructed in an undifferentiated way Paul's worldview… (157).
Now you have applied this to create some kind of "New Perspective on Jesus." Congratulations, and good luck with that.
But the trifold distinction, "Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms" was "not only a general continuity with the Jewish Scriptures, but also, and ore importantly, a continuity between the past reality of divine salvation in Israel's history and the present reality of the events that had just transpired in the Holy City." ("Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament," ed., Beale and Carson, pg. 401).
It is word from Christ himself that, whatever the chattering classes were discussing, they did not have in mind what God had clearly delineated for what was and was not to be "Holy Scripture."
Yes, Jesus and the Apostles knew what the Old Testament canon was.
John,
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately none of what you say proves that there existed a closed OT canon by the time of Jesus and the apostles. Moreover to read the phrase "the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms" as demonstrating a tripartite division of the TNK is anachronistic at best. Moreover, when one considers that the MT Psalter was not closed until 50 C.E. we really cannot suggest that the shape of the Psalter referred to in Luke 24 is the same as the Psalter in the ESV.
Do check out James Vanderkam's "Questions of Canon Viewed through the Dead Sea Scrolls"
Jesus himself viewed the Scriptures that he referred to as complete and sufficient, with himself as the fulfillment.
ReplyDeleteJohn,
ReplyDeleteEven if that were so that still leaves you having to demonstrate precisiely which books were included in the OT canon that Jesus saw as being complete and sufficient.
Well, in a practical way, how does this affect me?
ReplyDeleteJohn,
ReplyDeletePaul writes to Timothy, "as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."
Here the term "scripture" refers to the OT, so we need to know which books comprise that which is deemed to be "God-breathed, useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work". You wish to say that we should follow the practice of Jesus and use the same canon he used. Fine, now you need to demonstrate what books Jesus' canon comprised of. This has HUGH practical implications.
Ooh, yhwhmlk, I'm scared now. What are these HUGH practical implications?
ReplyDeleteJohn, what are you going to teach? What are you going to use to rebuke? What are you going to preach on next week from the OT? How do you know that Esther is canonical? How do you know that Ps. 90 is canonical? How do you know that Song of Songs is canonical? How do you know that Tobit is not canonical? Can we say prayers for the dead? Based on what? etc. The Christian confesses that the Bible is the sole authority for life and practice, but if you don't know what makes up your Bible then you have no authority in your life and you can do as you please.
ReplyDeleteFurther, there are two sets of considerations here: the canonical, and also the theological.
ReplyDeleteFor the canonical, I'll rely on Bruce Waltke, who says that Roger Beckwith has shown "convincingly" that the narrower Jewish canon was closed by 165 BC, and that this was the canon of the NT church. ("The Old Testament Canon of the New Testament Church and Its Background in Early Judaism.") So I'm not easily inclined to believe you that the issues were all that fuzzy. I'm sure Waltke wouldn't be citing Beckwith as "convincing" if it hadn't withstood the rectal inspection of your folks for 20+ years.
And further, in what is a proper use of an apocryphal book, Waltke also cites the author of 1 Macabees who said that prophecy had ceased long before his own time.
Your reliance on "2nd Temple" sources is highly questionable.
From a theological perspective, "the inward work of the Holy Spirit" bears witness to God's word. Not only for me, but for the believing church.
But further, OT scholars are very thorough to explain that "there is evidence within the Old Testament of a canonical self-consciousness, a recognition that what is written is given by God to rule and direct his people." That is, "written documentation accompanies the covenant relationship between God and his people and is intended to rule and direct their lives." God himself assumes that people will know what his commands are:
Deut 5:22, 32 -- "These are the commandments the LORD proclaimed in a loud voice to your whole assembly there on the mountain from out of the fire, the cloud and the deep darkness; and he added nothing more. Then he wrote them on two stone tablets and gave them to me…So be careful to do what the LORD your God has commanded you; do not turn aside to the right or to the left."
Deut 29:9 -- "The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law." ... "I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live…"
Josh 1:7-8 -- "Be careful to obey all the law my servant Moses gave you; do not turn from it to the right or to the left, ... Do not let this Book of the Law depart from your mouth; meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything written in it."
Psalm 1 -- "Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked or stand in the way of sinners or sit in the seat of mockers But his delight is in the law of the LORD, and on his law he meditates day and night." God doesn't seem concerned about what is, and what isn't, "the law of the Lord".
Psalm 119 -- "You have laid down precepts that are to be fully obeyed."
more
Such a thing wouldn't be meaningful if God himself intended "fuzzy boundaries" of the canon of Scriptures he provided. And if God isn't fixing those things himself, then we might as well all go surfing with Jason and forget about everything else.
ReplyDeleteAs well, the NT gives "clear recognition of the divinely given canon" of the OT. Not just Jesus. When Jesus and the Apostles said, "It is written…" or "God said," or "Scripture said," how did they know that Ps. 90 was canonical? Or the Song of Solomon?
Sinclair Ferguson writes of a "self-conscious adding to the canonical Scripture throughout the New Testament."
"These [things] are written," John says, "that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."
Peter recognizes Paul's writings as Scriptures. Etc.
I'm not an Old Testament scholar. But I know enough not to be impressed with such arguments as you are presenting. And the information that I have access to, is easily available to believers all over the world.
Rob Bell,
ReplyDeleteWhat you are saying is that SS is implicit somewhere in the Bible? Yes? And No, we can offer a deductive reason for Church Infallibility. What do you think about Horton prooftext. about some groups and not prooftext. with other groups,Catholics?? More Later.
1. I am saying the Sola Scriptura is an implication of our doctrine of Scripture, and a good one at that. I am not saying it is explicitly taught in the Bible (and yes, this is how Catholic apologists treat papal infallibility, so what's good for the goose is, like, good for the other goose, too or whatever).
2. You'll have to ask Horton about how he chooses to use prooftexts. I think it depends on the issues. One of the things that separates the Reformed from biblicist evangelicals is the fact that we're not naive enough to expect an explicit text to prove everything we say. Two words: Homo, and ousion.
John, I am off to a conference in 1hr till Wed so can't respond in any detail until Thurs. Relying of Waltke who relies on Beckwith is fine until you realise that Beckwith's interpretation is flawed as Eugene Ulrich has demonstrated as have others. For example try The Dead Sea scrolls and the origins of the Bible, The Canon Debate and The Bible at Qumran: text, shape, and interpretation.
ReplyDeleteJust a few thoughts.
ReplyDeleteObviously when reading Matthew 16 authority of some sort was given to Peter. Jesus also declared He would lead His apostles plural into all truth. He said he would bring all things to their remembrance. This occurred in the inspiration of the Apostles to record said truth in written format, namely in the gospels and the various letters written to the churches plural. He also after His resurrection gave all power and authority to his Apostles plural and stated they would have His presence throughout the ages to guide them.
So we have authority and truth handed down from God. These gifts go hand in hand, however truth is uppermost as we would know nothing of said authority had we not read of it in the scriptures. And if truth is sacrificed by an authority the authority is in error as truth cannot be error.
In the Old Testament authority and truth was given to the Jews according to Romans 9:4. However when they denied the truth all they had authority over at that point was error and thus were cut off. Though they claimed authoritative succession from Moses and Abraham CHrist rebuked them and said they did not believe Moses and that authority is contigent on faithfulness to the truth. He could of stones raise up children of Abraham.
This same warning is given to us in Romans 11:17ff that if we reject the truth we shall be cut off as they. So if we neglect the gospel their is no immunity. No authority is so immune that it can place itself above or even alongside of the truth. The Apostle Paul himself said in Gal 1 says:
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
Another thing to notice is how "quickly" and close temporally to the time of the NT. This epistle was written appx AD 49 and yet Paul comments on how soon they have departed from the gospel. I find it humourous at times when hearing folks mention church fathers who said something in AD 120 or something "really early" Well, here is Paul saying churches are departing the gospel before all the NT was even written. He then declares his authority from God( Gal 1:1) is bunk if he does not uphold the truth of the gospel.
SO the RCC may claim succession and authority like the Jews of Christs time but they are held to the same accountability to the truth as they and Paul were. The RCC may claim we Protestants and our million denominations is not the answer but I say let us lay our "gospel" cards on the table and see which ones line up with the truth. Just like Paul said we who have the "faith" of Abraham are his children, so it is a succession of the faith that is uppermost and whereever that faith is upheld there is Christ ans His authority.
Jason (this is in two posts)
ReplyDeleteBoth sides, yours and mine both can be accused of question begging. The Reformed assume the Church can depart from Scripture and teach error and even tragically lead people into a embracing a false Gospel. We too believe that a Bishop or a priest could, God forbid, do the same but that would be a failure not of the Magisterium and her God-given authority to teach truly what God wants but a failure on the part of the Bishop or Priest to teach and apply the deposit of faith in a given situation, a diocese or parish. I just gave a lecture the other day “The Failures of the Church”. (as an aside, I do think that, paradoxically to be sure, the moral failings of Church leaders actually helps demonstrate the Church’s divinely endowed authority, but that is another post). The Church has never taught the impeccability of the Papal office and Magisterium, which I know we all know but it is always good to remind, but her infallibility, that is to say the Church will not teach error in regard to faith and morals. Tragically, it is possible for a Pope, or Bishop to be, God forbid (and I never ever feel comfortable speaking of anyone being hell and surely would never be caviler about hell), in hell. Dare we hope, that all men be saved!
You are right in saying, “It’s OK to walk away from a church that departs from the faith…, Whether that departure has occurred is the real question.” The question that is helpful is, “Can the Church depart from what Scripture teaches?” To me, this question is fair and cannot be charged with question begging by either the Reformed or the Catholic. Of course, the answer to that question is all the difference. The Reformed (and other Evangelicals) would answer in the affirmative. But if Mike agrees with the above that I mentioned in the earlier post, in what meaningful way does he or the Reformed believe that the authority to forgive and retain sins is exercised? Or in what way is the Petrine Ministry manifested in the Church? In what way can he with confidence say the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth? I know the Reformed want and do say the Church is the ordinary means of salvation, but to what Church are they referring? If invisible, then I think Bryan’s article on Ecclesial Deism applies and needs to be reckoned with.
Part 2,
ReplyDeleteThe Church, on the other hand, recognizes that she cannot depart from Scripture for the simple reason Christ is her Head and Protector and the Holy Spirit has been given to ensure this continued work of Christ. We as Catholics believe that the Church cannot depart from Scripture for the simple fact that both have God as their source. The Incarnation, the Scripture, and the Church all resemble each other, don’t they? Of course, the Incarnation is utterly unique but in the Incarnation we claim, fully God and fully man, Scripture is written of God and written by man and the Church is of God and man. Both Scripture and the Church have this very much in common, they point not to themselves but Jesus Christ. This is why we as Catholics cannot pit the Scripture against the Church for it is pitting God against God, thus we don’t begin by asking, from a hermeneutic of suspicion, where has the Church departed from Scripture or can the Church contradict Scripture. We do the same with Holy Scripture, don’t we? We don’t begin with a hermeneutic of suspicion concerning the Scripture. Why? For it has God as its author. But so does the Church have God for its founder! The Pope and the Magisterium are not over Scripture as its lord, far from it, rather it is its servant but while we can affirm a uniqueness to Scripture and also Tradition we also recognize the necessity of the Magisterium. Too be sure, it is a strong statement to, indeed very bold! How can the Church believe such things? Simply out trust in Christ who neither deceive nor be deceived. The Catholic cannot be faulted for placing their faith and confidence in Christ to protect the Church, His Church, not the Pope’s, from teaching falsely in His Name.
Now as Catholics we recognize a dual profile of the Church: that is 1. The Petrine Profile which concerns her Apostolic authority, structure and institution. This is why we say that Petrine Ministry is of the esse and bene esse of the Church. This is given by Christ as His appointed means for the other profile of the Church: The Marian Profile which concerns the Church as disciple and follower of Christ, which is patterned on the faith of Mary, who hears the word of God and receives it, who brings Christ to others and heralds Him ‘do whatever He tells’, who treasures the things of God in her heart, who is pierced by His sufferings kneeling at the foot of the Cross. Thus, the Petrine is given as a means for the end of discipleship.
Now as to the issue of apparent discrepancies taught by Rome, as regards Scripture. I would answer that the Reformed are really only concerned about one major discrepancy as they see it, namely justification by faith alone. Thus, I think that to focus on the Marian doctrines as an area of discrepancy does not apply because those teachings do not strike at the vitals of the faith, namely the Gospel, as the Reformed define the Gospel and Justification. I will answer that I think the Church has a Scriptural basis for believing that Mary is the New Ark of the Covenant and making the case from the lesser to the greater that Mary was without sin. I think the Church can do the same with the Assumption (Rev 12). Now I certainly do not believe that I have a smoking gun verse for those dogmas, nor does any Catholic, nor the Church. But we do not do theology based on smoking gun verses. As to the Church defining them dogmatically and making them binding on the faithful to be believed, it goes back to the confidence that Christ will keep the Church from teaching error in regards to the faith.
Please elaborate on Mary being the Ark of the Covenant. Thank you.
ReplyDeleteMike,
ReplyDeleteI would love to but this thread is not the place for that. I brought that up as part of a larger argument. Jason would much prefer, I think, that the comments stay on topic. If you would like to contact me via email I would be honored to elaborate on that.
What is your email? I couldnt find it on CTC.
ReplyDeleteMike,
ReplyDeletetomriello@gmail.com
Tom,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your comments, I'll respond to them in the morning.
Jason
Tom Reillo: Both sides, yours and mine both can be accused of question begging.
ReplyDeleteThe dishonesty of this statement is astounding.
When the Reformed "beg the question," it is only at a point at which there is no way to avoid admitting one has a presupposition that he brings to the start of a discussion. Following that, the Reformed work with Scripture through a process of exegesis, that is getting out of the text what is there. The Reformed continue to follow the practice of Irenaeus, which I've cited above. ("The parables will agree with the clear statements and the clear passages will explain the parables. "). Scripture interprets Scripture.
With regard to the Catholic Church, it is a blatant form of revisionism. This is evidenced by Pius XII's statement in Humani Generis, "theologians must always return to the sources of divine revelation: for it belongs to them to point out how the doctrine of the living Teaching Authority is to be found either explicitly or implicitly in the Scriptures and in Tradition."
This is further explained in a variety of sources. One Roman Catholic theologian wry, "We think first of developed forms for which we need to find historical justification. The developed forms come first and the historical justification comes second." ("Ways of Validating Ministry," Killian McDonnal, Journal of Ecumenical Studies (7), pg. 213, cited in Carlos Alfredo Steger, "Apostolic Succession in the Writings of Yves Congar and Oscar Cullmann, pg. 322.)
Steger calls this type of historical revisionism "highly questionable if not inadmissible."
Unthinking Protestants, however, let this type of thing go unnoticed; in my estimation, a failure to understand that this is the foundation of the Catholic side of these discussions, is all too often the reason why these discussions end up the way they do.
But consider this perspective from George Orwell in 1984:
"If the Party could thrust its hand into the past and say this or that even, it never happened—that, surely, was more terrifying than mere torture and death." - George Orwell, 1984, Book 1, Chapter 3
Isn't this precisely what the Catholic Church, at an official level, has been doing for centuries?
My son likes to light matches so he can smell the smoke. Islamist terrorists investigate ways to create the maximum amount of death and terror through the use of incendiary devices. True, both could be said to be "playing with fire." But the sheer dishonesty of that statement, with regard to to proportion, must truly be understood before one can move forward with a sound understanding of what's really happening.
Until this basic methodology is acknowledged, examined and understood, it is useless and even damaging for Protestants to have any kind of "friendly" discussion at all with Catholics.
Here's a real-life parallel that Catholics should understand.
ReplyDeleteAbortion is now legal in the United States. If a historical revisionist should then take that statement and say, "Abortion has always been legal in the United States. It's implicitly in the Constitution."
That's the kind of thing that Catholics now do to justify such things as the early papacy (nonexistent), the Marian doctrines (nonexistent), their very doctrine of the Church ("It has always been ruled by the same type of authority structure we have today, only in seed form").
It's just a purely dishonest way of doing things.
Which Bible? I read somewhere that Jesus read and quoted from the LXX didnt He? A different tradition from the Hebrew canon. I have read many quotes and it confuses me. I am not naive to think a bound book fell out of the sky into bishop's laps. No it was an arduous process I am sure with lots of debate. I know there are allusions to the apocrypha in the NT, Heb 11:35 comes to mind, as well as Heb 11:37 refers to oral tradition. What does this all mean? Not only should we ask whose Bible but which Bible?
ReplyDeleteTom,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your comments.
Both sides, yours and mine both can be accused of question begging. The Reformed assume the Church can depart from Scripture and teach error and even tragically lead people into a embracing a false Gospel.
Paul assumed that as well, didn’t he, when he told the Ephesians that wolves would infiltrate the flock and draw people away from the faith? Or when he told the Galatians that apostolic (and even angelic) authority was subservient to the gospel.
You are right in saying, “It’s OK to walk away from a church that departs from the faith…, Whether that departure has occurred is the real question.” The question that is helpful is, “Can the Church depart from what Scripture teaches?”
I think the biblical analogue is OT Israel. Did the succession of priests insure fidelity with respect to faith and morals? Obviously not. But God always had his remnant who refused to bow the knee to Baal. God didn’t need “children of Abraham,” he could raise those up from stones if he wanted to.
But if Mike agrees with the above that I mentioned in the earlier post, in what meaningful way does he or the Reformed believe that the authority to forgive and retain sins is exercised? Or in what way is the Petrine Ministry manifested in the Church? In what way can he with confidence say the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth?
This is where things get a bit messy for us, but necessarily so, I think. As the WCF says, a church can be more or less visible, depending on its faithfulness to Scripture. To whatever degree a church departs from the gospel, to that degree its authority is lessened. And despite the stuff Catholics always say about how we have forty trillion denominations (“with no two agreeing” as Madrid says!), the fact is that the majority of them agree on the basic gospel message.
[Cont’d below]
I know the Reformed want and do say the Church is the ordinary means of salvation, but to what Church are they referring? If invisible, then I think Bryan’s article on Ecclesial Deism applies and needs to be reckoned with.
ReplyDeleteNo, visible local congregations are the means of salvation, to whatever degree they are faithful to the gospel message. Remember, Paul and Jesus often warned about heretics arising in the midst of God’s people, but the remedy for identifying them was never “Do they agree with everything Peter says when he speaks infallibly under those specific conditions?”
In fact, when Jesus was told that some were ministering in his Name without his permission, he said, “Don’t forbid them, whoever is not against me is for me.” And when Paul spoke about those who preached Christ illicitly, he said, “I just rejoice that Christ is preached.”
BTW, was God a disinterested watchmaker under the OC, when the succession of priests brought scandal and blasphemy against God’s name among the Gentiles?
Just seeing if I can post in IE. (had something really fabulous to say, but struggling to post here using firefox)
ReplyDeleteSeems to have worked fine, Andrew. And BTW, if you get an error message after you hit "Submit," just hit it again and it will go through (that's what happens with me).
ReplyDeleteJason,
ReplyDeleteI think the biblical analogue is OT Israel. Did the succession of priests insure fidelity with respect to faith and morals? Obviously not.
They why did Jesus prescribe the following in Matthew 23? “Then said Jesus to the crowds and to his disciples, 'The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you…'" Jesus then goes on to call them a brood of vipers. But his initial point is an appeal to oral tradition since there is no Biblical mention of Moses seat anywhere. Indeed, in this appeal he is admonishing them to hold to this authoritative tradition, to do anything whatsoever that the Pharisees tell them to do. Obviously Jesus' comment shows he had complete confidence that the teachings of the Pharisees were worth following in totality.
P.S. this comment posted as Anonymous I'm guessing, but it's me, brian. Haven't commented in the new format, so I'm not sure what to choose on that "Comment as:" drop-down thingie.
Brian,
ReplyDelete(The easiest option is to select "Name/URL" from the drop-down menu, and then type your name in. If after submitting your comment it tells you it couldn't be processed, just hit "submit" again and it will work.)
OK, so are you really telling me that the only problem with the Pharisees was their personal behavior? Do you really think that, if you were to go back and ask Saul of Tarsus what you must do to be saved, that he would have given you the correct answer? That is simply ludicrous.
All Jesus meant there was that when the Pharisees were teaching the precepts of the law (as in, telling you what kinds of food to avoid, or how much restitution to make to a neighbor you've wronged), they were to be heeded because of their office. But when you go on and read the rest of Matt. 23, you see very clearly that they didn't have a clue about the gospel (Jesus said they turned their converts into greater sons of hell than they themselves were). "Sure, you tithe your spices, and I respect that," Jesus is saying to them, "but howsabout you learn a thing or two about weightier matters like justice and the love of God?"
That passage about Moses' seat doesn't have nearly the weight that Catholics try to give it.
Brian, your use of this "seat of Moses" pericope as a proof-text for "oral tradition" is highly questionable. When Jesus says, "do and observe all that they tell you," the only thing they are supposed to tell you is what Moses wrote in the law. According to one of the best commentaries on the text of Matthew:
ReplyDeleteThough it might be possible to refer 'seat of Moses' to a heavenly throne for Moses, a link to an item of furniture in some synagogues seems more likely, though such an item in its turn may be intended to represent a heavenly throne. Surviving ancient stone chairs from synagogue ruins seem to have been designed to hold scrolls of Scripture.
He says, "if this is right, then there is very little likelihood that anybody ever actually sat in the seat of Moses, both because of the dishonour to the Law which would be implied and the presumption involved in taking the place of Moses (and more so if representation of a heavenly throne is involved)."
Nolland also cites Powell, who says "Jesus may simply be acknowledging the powerful social and religious position that [the scribes and Pharisees] occupy in a world where most people are illiterate and copies of the Torah are not plentiful. Since Jesus' disciples do not themselves have copies of the Torah, they will be dependent on the scribes and the Pharisees to know what Moses said ... In light of such dependence, Jesus advises his disciples to heed the words that the scribes and Pharisees speak when they sit in the seat of Moses, that is, when they pass on the words of the Torah itself." (Nolland pgs 922-923).
In that case, "they could be relied on to report the Law of Moses with care and accuracy."
There is no indication that anything like a "magisterium," there is no indication that they added their own "developments" to the teaching of Moses. There is nothing at all to support "oral tradition." They were merely reciting the written text, and that is what people were to obey. That was their job.
If you read the rest of the pericope, by the way, this certainly is a good picture of what the Roman Catholic Church has become: They love the place of honor and "the most important seats." It is more likely that this condemnation applies directly to the "Chair of Peter." Rome exalts itself and therefore it will be humbled. Rome "shuts the kingdom of heaven" by placing all sorts of requirements in the way of "the free gift of the gospel." Rome places more value on the gold in the temple than God's throne in heaven.
Etc.
I guess I didn't communicate well 'cause you guys are taking this to ends where I wasn't prepared to go myself. All I'm saying, is what you, Jason, said, "they were to be heeded because of their office". And I'd add, they were to be heeded because the oral tradition they passed on was profitable and edifying. Did God preserve this in some way? Even those who appeal to the "remnant" type of understanding would have to say that the Holy Spirit is surely involved. Degree and extent? Who knows? But, don't think I'm claiming some infallible charism for them that would imply that they have the sure way to salvation and redemption. And no, I don't think Moses seat is an actual piece of furniture. Good grief. When misconstrued, I hate this medium.
ReplyDeleteThat's the point. It wasn't "an office." And you did say "oral tradition." We know where Catholic arguments go when "office" and "tradition" are mentioned. It is you yourself who are misconstruing things.
ReplyDeleteFurther to this, R.T. France, in his commentary, goes further, and says, "the words must be read in context: the scribes and the Pharisees will be declared quite unfit to guide God's people."