Scott Clark has just reported that a "Letter of Concern" has been sent to the Missouri Presbytery regarding Federal Visionist Jeffrey Meyers, signed by 29 ministers and elders from 12 different presbyteries. More here.I met Jeff and enjoyed a nice chat with him at the PCA's General Assembly last summer in Orlando. I must confess, though, I have never understood how he could say things like this, while still claiming to be Reformed:
"I do think the latest scholarly work in biblical theology demands that we go back and redo a great deal of the Westminster standards. They were written when people still thought of the covenant as a contract and believed that 'merit' had some role to play in our covenantal relations with God. The whole bi-polar covenant of works/grace schema has got to go. And if that goes, the whole 'system' must be reworked" (The Wrightsaid Group, November or December, 2003).
And for the life of me, I can't understand how Meyers' own presbytery (you know, the one with the PCA's seminary in it) never took any action on any of the seeming contradictions of the Westminster Standards that he has become known for. Sure, my own presbytery has just been publically (and embarrassingly) faulted by the PCA for its failure to find a strong presumption of guilt with respect to Peter Leithart, but I would have thought the Missouri Presbytery would be less rogue, and more mainstream, than we are up here in the Pacific Northwest.
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ReplyDeleteJason,
ReplyDeleteI can echo your frustration, but this letter is great news. I'm happy that other presbyteries are taking the lead in taking Missouri to task for hiding at least one heretic (not to mention Mark Horne). I've been vocal about trying to encourage confessional ministers to accept calls in presbyteries that need this kind of leadership in prosecuting erring ministers. The Federal Vision disease has spread farther than we might realize and it will take a strategic effort to smoke out all of them from their hiding holes. Meyers may be "nice" but he is leading his sheep into serious error.
Jeremy
I've provided a public answer to your question here:
ReplyDeletehttp://johannesweslianus.blogspot.com/2010/03/why-covenant-seminary-hasnt-done.html
Man, I wish this weren't happening, although I understand it. I've admired Meyers' works, particularly "The Lord's Service," which I've marked up all over the place. A shame.
ReplyDeleteThis is a shame. I recall going through Pastor Meyers' book, "The Lord's Service" several years ago and being very impressed with what he had written. "Smoking people out of their holes" may not be the best way to put it, but we should hold pastors to the Confessions to which they subscribed.
ReplyDelete"For the love of all that is holy", PLEASE make that image go full-size when clicked upon! It's a great image, and providing it in such a small size is no good! Thanks man. I have a sister and brother-in-law living in Seattle, how I wish they would go to your church!
ReplyDeleteJohnny,
ReplyDeleteI know, it's pretty awesome, huh? Unfortunately, that's the actual image size, so it's hard to read all the fine print.
as a former covenant student and resident of st. louis, it seems i never seem to be astonished by how blind?, uninformed?, naive? (not quite sure what descriptive to use)...those outside of st. louis are by the condition of things here.
ReplyDeletethe outside world appears to have this misguided notion that the seminary is just cranking out stout-hearted, well prepared, mature, dully qualified calvinistic ministers of the gospel....my friends, this is not the case. horror stories abound. fellas, PRAY!
So I hire a guy, he promises to do what I say, I make him a foreman. Then he calls me mental, tells my workers that I'm stupid and that he's going to run things his way now that he's a foreman.
ReplyDeleteNo wonder the PCA is in the state it's in. A normal organisation would have thrown him out after a day or two.
I think the Missouri Presbytery needs to investigate and Meyers needs to recant.
ReplyDeleteIt has been a couple of years since the PCA Report, but the main duty of TE's is preaching, teaching and administering the Sacraments. Evidence against Meyers is scattered and many TE's, especially if older, are not reading blogs and online writings of Meyers. Also, Meyers did not do what Leithart did and come to the Presbytery and say “Hey, I'm FV, deal with it!”
That said, the reason the Missouri Presbytery has not acted so far could be 1) lack of available evidence or knowledge of that evidence 2) The lack of someone bringing it to the attention of the Presbytery (by outside or inside) 3) They want to protect their own 4) Sympathy with FV in the Missouri Presbytery.
Until the Presbytery acts, can we assume 1 or 2 in public please.
You and your cronies are evil, attacking others when your own theology is so screwed up... Kline gone to seed, as it were. Someone should be investigating you! Creed, code, cult? Sounds heretical to me.
ReplyDeleteIrony: The poster is a lampoon created by Jeff Meyers. Too funny to see it used here.
ReplyDeleteHa ha, that's pretty funny, Barbara! I guess this is a case of "Careful what you jokingly prophesy...."
ReplyDeleteI must say that I am not surprised. A few years ago, I started reading his book "The Lord's Service", but I decided to put it down because I had some reservations about his hyper covenantalism. I pray that he will reevaluate his stance.
ReplyDeleteReally, the joke may prove true, but not in the way you hope. Time will tell. The two Presbyteries you're up against aren't quite willing to roll over & play dead. We shall see...
ReplyDeleteOh, but never fear. Once you have the FV guys banished, you can concentrate on the Kellerites & RUF guys, and who knows who's next. But rest assured, you guys will corner the market on the Truly Reformed, shrinking cadre though you may be.
ReplyDeleteThe PCA is set to implode.
Barbara, my dear, you think you know me, but you have NO idea....
ReplyDeleteBarbara - I think you are looking at what is happening on the fringes of the PCA and assuming that this is representative. Doug Wilson has talked about folks making too much of the FV controversy as if this is all that the CREC cares about. He points out that even in his church (the FV Mecca, right?) most of the folks there know nothing of FV and really don't care. They are about doing their day to day business in the God's kingdom. Well what is true in Doug's church is even more true of the PCA churches. Most even elders in the PCA couldn't tell you that much about FV or NPP and would not see the relevance.
ReplyDeleteAnd Jason is hardly the sort of person to go looking for people to cast out of the PCA.
Jason,
ReplyDeleteOne of the interesting statements in the Joint FV Declaration is in the first paragraph:
"In any place where statements here would constitute an exception to whatever confessional standards we are under, they are exceptions that have been noted and approved by our respective presbyteries or classes."
It will be interesting to see which (perhaps all?) of the items in the letter of concern the Missouri Presbytery has already approved as acceptable exceptions to the WCF and Catechisms.
David
Interesting point, David. I find this pretty hard to believe.
ReplyDeleteAh yes Barb, we all remember the implosion when the Arians and then the Nestorians were driven out, and who could forget the implosion when the Arminians (who all proudly bore the title REFORMED) were driven out after Dordt. In fact, we know that the way to keep the church healthy and all get along is to first tolerate and then coddle and then promote error. That is why the ARP is doing so well at present and why the CRC is so healthy.
ReplyDeleteFrom a Member of MO Pres:
ReplyDeleteThere is an Old-Guard and a New-Guard in the MP. Many of the Old-Guard were "shocked" at how very controversial the transfer exam of Mark Horne to MP became, and ever sense then have enforced a "let's all get along and just not talk about these things" mentality. Some of we newer TE's have been butting up against this mentality to no avail. Whenever floor exams turn theological, the process of examination itself comes under attack, and those who actually try to make theological arguments are shunned--and kept of committees. Perhaps this will be the impetus for those who know better to step-up?
From a layman in the MO Presbytery: "Those who know better" - hmm. Statements like that make me wish I were in a denomination with a little better perspective on the relative importance of the issues that have lately been discussed. I thought I was in such a denomination, but lately things seem very different. I just hope these "new guard" ministers aren't like those raised in a germ-free environment, so unacquainted with real germs that they begin an autoimmune spiral against themselves. The real thing that I hope will prevent this new guard from making any headway in a presbytery that hosts the denominational seminary is that, at bottom, these strict confessionalists do not believe that constructive theology is a legitimate discipline. They expect seminary professors and pastors to be mere catechists and chaplains. Fresh interpretation of the bible, rethinking formulations, etc. - these are things too risky to allow given the kind of confessionalism that is becoming popular. I'm sure that the "new guard" sincerely thinks it has all the answers for the presbytery and the denomination. But this seems akin to the way that single guys without children always have childrearing all figured out. I just hope that you men, no matter from guard you hail, will listen to each other and get beyond slogans. I also would encourage all you seminary professors in the Missouri Presbytery to get involved in this. True, there is no advantage to you, personally, for getting involved in presbytery- you would just be subjecting yourselves to the kind of scrutiny that the strict-confessionalists want to apply to men who color outside of the lines here and there. But you should feel some responsibility to participate if you see men being attacked for things you yourself believe. Though there is no personal advantage, perhaps you can help save the PCA from strict subscriptionists. You did it before with the creation days issue and formed the PPLN and popularized the idea of "good faith subscription." Please do it again!
ReplyDeleteI wonder if these last two are at the same church in MO? Wouldn't that be fun!
ReplyDeleteI wish that these same elders and concerned laypersons would do the same in the South Texas presbytery, too. Rich Lusk left some of his influence behind when he left Redeemer Pres in Austin, apparently.
ReplyDeletehttp://godshammer.wordpress.com/2010/10/06/covenant-seminary-and-the-federal-vision-aiding-and-abetting/
ReplyDelete