5/26/10

Some Thoughts on the Tu Quoque

As those of you who follow Catholic/Protestant dialogue surely know, there’s a lot of debate that surrounds what is called “the tu quoque.” Here’s how it works: a Catholic will accuse a Protestant of not submitting in any meaningful sense to ecclesiastical authority since he chose his church based solely on its agreement with his own interpretation of Scripture. “At the end of the day,” the Catholic says, “all you’re doing is submitting to yourself.”

At this point the Protestant responds by saying something like, “Well, you’re no different, especially if you converted to Catholicism as an adult: you also weighed the biblical and historical evidence in order to reach your own conclusions, so we don’t see why you should have exclusive ecclesiological bragging rights.” In other words, the Protestant response is “Tu quoque,” which is Latin for “You, too.”

One of the ways that Catholics seek to escape the charge that they’re just as beholden to private judgment as Protestants is by appealing to the fact that the criterion by which they identify the true church is objective, whereas that by which Protestants identify the true church is subjective: “We look to the historical fact of apostolic succession,” they say, “but you look for a church that agrees with how you understand the Bible. Therefore we’re not in the same epistemic boat at all.”

Some thoughts....

First, I agree that a new Catholic surrenders interpretive authority once he joins the church, while a new Protestant in some degree retains it. After all, if a Protestant one day finds that his church no longer agrees with him on matters that he deems essential, he is free to leave and look for a church that is more in line with his interpretation of Scripture. Catholics can’t do that—they have no choice but to submit their interpretations to the Magisterium, regardless of whether they personally agree or not.

Secondly, I agree that, all things being equal, an appeal to historical facts is less subjective than an appeal to an interpretation of biblical data.

But herein lies the problem.

Before a Catholic arrives at the conclusion that the historical fact of apostolic succession is indeed the proper criterion by which the true church can be located, he must do the biblical and historical research to reach that conclusion. For example, he must first determine that apostolic succession is a “fact” rather than a fiction (and plenty of scholars believe that apostolic succession is a myth). He must then invest that “fact” with the ecclesiological significance needed in order to elevate it to the level of being a necessary condition for identifying the true church. So it is only after all of this private interpretation of the historical and biblical data is complete that the soon-to-be Catholic can even arrive at the place where he has his so-called objective criterion in place. But if you think about it, this is no different than (1) a person doing the exact same research and concluding that apostolic succession, while perhaps being a useful tool in the early days to find the church, has ceased to be a relevant factor given the church’s failure to maintain the Pauline gospel. It’s also no different than (2) a person concluding from his biblical and historical research that the objective criterion by which to locate the true church is that justification by faith alone is preached.

So in conclusion, the Catholic’s point that his criterion is objective while ours is subjective is only true if you don’t start the clock until after he has finished doing all the subjective stuff in order to figure out what his criterion is in the first place.

When it comes to the most crucial part of the church-choosing process, therefore, the Catholic is indeed subject to the Protestant’s tu quoque objection, for before he surrenders his interpretive authority to the Magisterium he must work out from the Bible and church history what the proper criterion is for locating the true church.

93 comments:

  1. I don't have a rebuttal per se, but would offer this thought:

    I was an atheist and had a radical conversion to Christ around 22 years old. When I "discovered" Christ and found that--somehow--the words that my friends told me he said and the first prayers that I sent his way actually changed my life and delivered me from previously-insurmountable personal problems, I knew that he must be true and that I wanted to know him and how he wanted me to live.

    I had become a Protestant Christian, and I had used private judgment (guided we hope by God's grace) to believe in Jesus. I could have been wrong in putting my faith in Jesus because it is possible that he does not exist.

    I explored the claims of the Catholic Church and initially rejected them with scorn. But I soon realized that either God protected his Church from error or he did not, and if he did not, my (66-book) Bible may or may not be the full/true one, and so if God did protect "his" Church from error, what "Church" in the world had the strongest claim to that?

    I used private judgment (again, hopefully led by God's grace) to decide that the Catholic Church had the most credible claim to being his Church. I could be wrong, but (with faith) choosing the Catholic Church was a similar experience to finding Christ: its as if you met a person and got to be friends with them and you loved them fraternally and then a month later you met their spouse and it was like a whole other dimension opened up to your friend.

    So for me there was a qualitative difference between remaining Protestant (and going to which church/denomination?) and becoming Catholic. Both involve private judgment, but that decision has enormous ramifications.

    That's my take, and again I don't intend this as a direct rebuttal. God bless! Love the U2 picture.
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  2. Thanks for your comments, Devin.

    I'm sure you'd admit, though, that your testimony doesn't help the Catholic's case that Protestants are subjective in their criterion while Catholics are more objective, right? I mean, if someone could guarantee to me right now that, if I became a Catholic I would be really happy, that doesn't mean I would do it (same with becoming a Mormon).
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  3. I know this is a bit off-field from the interests of the regular commenters on this blog, but I was wondering if in the attempt to adjudicate which is the truer church, if anyone here has factored in the claims of Eastern Orthodoxy?
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  4. Jason,

    Before a Catholic arrives at the conclusion that the historical fact of apostolic succession is indeed the proper criterion by which the true church can be located, he must do the biblical and historical research to reach that conclusion.

    You launched into the paragraph driving home your argument by pointing to apostolic succession, as if that's THE point on which all of this hinges. Is that what you're saying? Or is your mention of apostolic succession merely one example among many?
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  5. The tu quoque fallacy only applies if it used to dismiss, to ignore the material elements of an opponent's argument. That is decidedly not the case in ths matter.

    Both Protestants and Catholics to some degree in essential matters necessarily rely subjective judgments. If this makes one party guilty of relying on personal authority, it makes both parties guilty of the same.

    This is not a tu quoque dismissal, but a simple comparison that this sword cuts both ways.

    This whole effort on the part of RC apologists to find secure object ground on the basis of these biblical and historical arguments is yet another example of R. Scott Clarks QIRC error. Surely there is a better ground on which to make the case?

    Reed DePace
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  6. Darren,

    I know this is a bit off-field from the interests of the regular commenters on this blog, but I was wondering if in the attempt to adjudicate which is the truer church, if anyone here has factored in the claims of Eastern Orthodoxy?

    I haven't given EO any real thought myself, except insofar as studying Catholicism sort of includes elements of EO as well. On the one hand I think EO poses a problem for Catholicism because in it we have a serious historical argument that Rome has added to, and thus perverted, the deposit of faith (and if they did it with the pope, did they do it with Mary, too?).

    On the other hand, though, speaking on a purely human and pragmatic level, EO seems less plausible than Catholicism. But that's just me.
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  7. Brian,

    You launched into the paragraph driving home your argument by pointing to apostolic succession, as if that's THE point on which all of this hinges. Is that what you're saying? Or is your mention of apostolic succession merely one example among many?

    Yeah, I did mean to highlight AS because that is what the Called to Communion guys point to as the only possible way to avoid the subjectivist approach of choosing a church based on its agreement with one's own interpretation of Scripture.
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  8. Also, with respect to AS, it's important to keep in mind that a good number of Prots held/hold to it (and thus its corollary, some kind of "branch theory")—Anglicans and "high-church" Lutherans.
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  9. Well, one issue I'd point out is that things like Apostolic Succession is well attested to in the Fathers and Councils. It has historical witness.

    If someone has faith in Christ, and they look to the Church Fathers as historical *CHRISTIAN* testimony, the Protestant is going to have a harder time finding Fathers who fit the Protestant mold. No scholar, no matter how liberal, can get around the fact there were major Ecumenical Councils held, and simply examining them there is solid testimony to apostolic succession and other very "Catholic" stuff.

    A lot of this comes down to fact there are no "Protestant" Fathers of the early Church. The only logical alternative is that of the radically a-historical Protestant groups who posit a 'gap' between the Apostles and Luther.
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  10. Jason, what do you find more implausible about the EO position from the RC?

    I brought it up because EO holds to apostolic succession (which admittedly doesn't help the Protestant case), but reject any inherent primacy of Rome except that of honor. If RCs want to argue that the history and Fathers is fuel against the Protestants, don't they have to reckon with the similar claims of EO against RC?
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  11. Jason,

    I see where you're coming from, and I agree with the logic, but it seems your view of this is askew to that which your RCC sparring partners see. For example, you say, "When it comes to the most crucial part of the church-choosing process, therefore, the Catholic is indeed subject to the Protestant’s tu quoque objection...". The phrase church-choosing seems odd to me. Are we choosing a Church, or are we attempting to identify the Church to which Christ referred when he said he was instituting a Church?

    By way of example, when John the Baptist was in the pokie, "he sent word by his disciples and said to him, 'Are you he who is to come, or shall we look for another?' And Jesus answered them, 'Go and tell John what you hear and see: the blind receive their sight and the lame walk, lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, and the dead are raised up, and the poor have good news preached to them. And blessed is he who takes no offense at me.'"

    So, I imagine John was hoping for an objective answer to the "Is it you?" question, but what he got was an answer that in effect was saying, "look at things pointing to what you have been awaiting, and you will find the truth you have been seeking."

    Similarly, if you are seeking his Church via indisputable confirmation of apostolic succession, you're likely to find areas subject to quibbling. I'd say rather, with regard to the RCC, look her over. What do you hear and see?
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  12. Jason:

    I don't think you're getting the significance of the distinction between the sorts of assent rendered by the inquirer who becomes Catholic and the inquirer who becomes Protestant. Each sort of assent comes, of course, after a process of reasoning about the historical dataset, and partly as a result of such a process--though not wholly, because the assent is one of faith, which is free and thus not compelled by reason. In that respect, the two inquirers are engaged in processes whose form and motivation are very similar. But the assent that comes at the end of such a process is different for the Catholic and the Protestant.

    The Catholic assents to the claim made by a visible body, physically and historically continuous with the apostolic church, that she is preserved by the Holy Spirit from teaching with her full authority what is false. The Protestant assents to no claim of that sort, because no Protestant church makes a claim of that sort. Accordingly, the Catholic treats the Church as the measure of his orthodoxy; whereas the Protestant treats his own judgment as the measure of his church's orthodoxy. That's why the Catholic makes a claim to objectivity that the Protestant does not and cannot.

    Now from a non-Catholic standpoint, the Catholic claim is going to appear as just one opinion among many, and thus as subject to the tu quoque. From a Catholic standpoint, however, no such view makes sense. When somebody chooses to become Catholic, after a due process of rational investigation, he no longer admits the possibility that his church might be wrong when she speaks with her full authority. So the Catholic as such, if he's being self-consistent, can no longer see Catholicism as just a provisional, human interpretation of the dataset that seems more reasonable than others, which is the way Protestants see their own confessions, given their eschewing of ecclesial infallibility. The Catholic will of course see Catholicism as rationally supported by the dataset; but adopting the Catholic hermeneutical paradigm means giving up the idea that the deposit of faith can be identified and assented to by faith, as distinct from mere opinion, without also assenting to the claims of the Church for herself. Hence, once an inquirer becomes Catholic, he cannot self-consistently admit that there is any interpretation of the sources by which the orthodoxy of the Church can be assessed. For the Church is the judge of everybody else's orthodoxy. Given her visibility and historical continuity, that means that the Catholic Church is a more objective touchstone of orthodoxy than any interpretation of Scripture which she herself would not approve.

    Best,
    Mike
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  13. Jason, can you give me an example of two men who each decide to trust in an authority (doesn't have to be religious) where one man's method of decision making is more objective than the other's? What does that look like? Or do you think such a thing is possible?
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  14. Pastor, you said "The tu quoque fallacy only applies if it used to dismiss, to ignore the material elements of an opponent's argument. That is decidedly not the case in ths matter."

    On the contrary, the tu quoque fallacy is the _only_ objection that's been brought up so far and all the arguments have been ignored on account of Protestants believing that saying "you too" is the equivalent of refuting an argument. (I'm speaking of the sola/sola thread - if you have an objection other than the tu quoque fallacy you should bring it up there.)
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  15. Hi Jason,

    I agree with you: just because it "feels" better to be something (whether Catholic or Mormon or whatever) doesn't mean you should become one.

    For me, the sola/solo article on Called to Communion seemed like a no-brainer in terms of it being accurate--as a Protestant I would have agreed with it 100% and said "dang right I'm the ultimate interpretive authority!" but then again I was an _Evangelical_ Protestant and not Reformed.

    Rather, the Canon Question is the big one that for me sunk Protestantism, which is why I have been a bit disappointed that few Protestants engaged in the discussion on that one. Everyone's up in arms over sola/solo but can't give an account for their 66-book Bible that gives conscience-binding certainty? Sola Scriptura cannot stand without the books that comprise the Scriptura being rock-solid.

    Well, don't want to derail things but that's my take: Did God protect his Church from error in her teachings or did he not? That's the main question in my mind.
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  16. The phrase church-choosing seems odd to me. Are we choosing a Church, or are we attempting to identify the Church to which Christ referred when he said he was instituting a Church?

    Brian,

    I’m not so sure these are as mutually exclusive as you suggest. Could it be that we are attempting to identify the church to which Christ referred when he said he was instituting a church so that we may then choose a church?

    And “church-choosing” is only odd if by it one means either something consumeristic, or if one has engaged his own private judgment in choosing his and now concludes that anyone who also exercises private judgment and concludes something different is being odd. Like I’ve told Bryan Cross, I’ve an easier time with you guys faulting our conclusion, but to disallow us using private judgment seems like bad form when “you do, too.”
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  17. Nick,
    Well, one issue I'd point out is that things like Apostolic Succession is well attested to in the Fathers and Councils. It has historical witness.

    Yes, and to this no Reformed scholar would object. But that’s why I made the distinction between the historical phenomenon on the one hand, and its ecclesiological significance on the other. It is possible, in other words, that the appeal to a list of bishops stretching back to the apostles was an historical luxury that the early fathers could appeal to in order to challenge, say, the Gnostics, but that that succession lost its relevance when the original deposit was distorted or added to (which is the Protestant position).

    If someone has faith in Christ, and they look to the Church Fathers as historical *CHRISTIAN* testimony, the Protestant is going to have a harder time finding Fathers who fit the Protestant mold. No scholar, no matter how liberal, can get around the fact there were major Ecumenical Councils held, and simply examining them there is solid testimony to apostolic succession and other very "Catholic" stuff.

    Again, I agree. But if Jesus himself could lament how far from the faith of Abraham his literal progeny had fallen, and if the apostles themselves could express utter shock at how quickly the churches they founded had departed from the faith, then it appears that the historical record can only bear so much normative significance, right? I mean, if the Galatians were in danger of screwing up the gospel before Paul himself could even write to them (and that being one of the NT’s earliest books), then what help is it to you that by the 7th century they were “already” celebrating Mary’s assumption?

    A lot of this comes down to fact there are no "Protestant" Fathers of the early Church. The only logical alternative is that of the radically a-historical Protestant groups who posit a 'gap' between the Apostles and Luther.

    This is true, and this is indeed a difficult challenge for us to answer. See? I can be humble sometimes….
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  18. Darren,

    Jason, what do you find more implausible about the EO position from the RC?

    Well, if I were starting a church, I’d rather give the keys to one guy rather than make a bunch of guys share them. That way, if counterfeit keys somehow found themselves in circulation (God forbid), there’d be a way to determine which ones were fake and which were real.

    But of course, Jesus started the church, not me. And he didn’t ask my opinion beforehand….
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  19. Brian,

    The phrase church-choosing seems odd to me. Are we choosing a Church, or are we attempting to identify the Church to which Christ referred when he said he was instituting a Church?

    I know, I just like that both words start with a see-aych. It’s about style, not substance, here at CCC.

    Similarly, if you are seeking his Church via indisputable confirmation of apostolic succession, you're likely to find areas subject to quibbling. I'd say rather, with regard to the RCC, look her over. What do you hear and see?

    All due respect, but the more compelling Catholic apologetic tactics take the opposite approach and urge consideration of the CC NOT based on what we see, but in spite of it. In other words, you guys don’t always inspire confidence based on your street cred. Not that I’m throwing stones or anything, since you’ve been around for, like, 1900 years longer than we have, so you’ve obviously got some baggage.
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  20. Mike,

    I don't think you're getting the significance of the distinction between the sorts of assent rendered by the inquirer who becomes Catholic and the inquirer who becomes Protestant….The Catholic assents to the claim made by a visible body, physically and historically continuous with the apostolic church, that she is preserved by the Holy Spirit from teaching with her full authority what is false. The Protestant assents to no claim of that sort, because no Protestant church makes a claim of that sort. Accordingly, the Catholic treats the Church as the measure of his orthodoxy; whereas the Protestant treats his own judgment as the measure of his church's orthodoxy. That's why the Catholic makes a claim to objectivity that the Protestant does not and cannot.

    No, I totally get that. That’s why I said in my post that, once each seeker has made his respective choice, the rules change and the Protestant retains a measure of interpretive authority which the Catholic surrenders. I get that. That’s why I said on Green Baggins that we should just concede that point to you.

    So the Catholic as such, if he's being self-consistent, can no longer see Catholicism as just a provisional, human interpretation of the dataset that seems more reasonable than others, which is the way Protestants see their own confessions, given their eschewing of ecclesial infallibility.

    I never indicated that I think Catholics think the way you seem to think I think they think. I indicated the exact opposite: you guys have no choice but to change your opinion of what you think Scripture teaches if the pope says (under the stipulated conditions) that you’re wrong.

    So you’re not telling me anything I don’t know or haven’t admitted. My point is simply that it’s no fair to claim that you simply accept the brute facts of history while we weasel out of them by interpreting data. The ecclesiological significance of apostolic succession is no less the conclusion of private interpretation than is the ecclesiological significance of sola fide. We’re both evaluating data and determining what we think is a necessary condition for valid ministry.

    I mean, plenty of people study the fathers, admit that they appealed to succession, but then deny that the historical phenomenon has the ecclesiological significance that you think it has.
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  21. Actually both P and C are using objective data to make decisions. It is inescapable. To deny it is absurd. The question is which decision is correct. It is really not that difficult.

    Both P and C agree in the authority of the scripture. While the C's claim extrabiblical authority, they claim to derive that from the bible. The C even go at great lengths to quote from it to try and defend(or clothe the emperor as I call it)their unbiblical doctrines, while the P's rest alone in the bible's authority, and thus reject the so-called "emperor's fine array", regardless of how many suitors throughout the ages have drunk the cool aid to see it.

    The church was built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Paul himself one of the apostles, and who placed the anathema upon Himself if he departed from the gospel of Christ found in the "bible alone" Jesus Christ and his word are unmoveable, but the rest of us are not, and have no guarantee of always upholding the gospel.

    For the C's to brag about the Father's who were guided by PRovidence and promise to bind the books of the NT together as though that somehow placed them as another authority alongside or above it is ridiculous. God promised to bring all things to their remembrance and put them to writing. In doing that He did not do so to place another authority alongside of it which actually negated it. Though He ascended, His paracletos descended fulfilling Christs promise to be with us to the end of the age. He is with us through the SPirit, who is the author of the word, and if we abide in His word then we are His disciples.

    SO we P's thank you C's for that, but rather than putting too much emphasis on the instrument and taking away glory from the Master we praise Him for faithfully preserving His word. Just like we praise Him for preserving His covenantal seed, Christ throughout the OT record, all the while using fallable men and women and circumstances to do so.

    So now that we agree as to the books, we P's shall rest in them (even with the differences we have) and you may rest on your church and its fallable and sin ridden history. We P's do not deny our churches have erred. We know so as they are judged not by itself but by the word who birthed it. He shall preserve His elect throughout this age. A remnant shall continue is the promise, and the gates of hell shall never destroy his chosen, his church as it comprised throughout the world. We are born by the word of incorruptible seed and preserved and kept by the word(and its Author) Faith comes by the word of Christ, and He is the author and finisher of it. And His word is the Bible, our sole authority He has given. You may choose another, but to your own peril.
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  22. Tim,

    Jason, can you give me an example of two men who each decide to trust in an authority (doesn't have to be religious) where one man's method of decision making is more objective than the other's? What does that look like? Or do you think such a thing is possible?

    Hmmm....

    If you and I both decide to choose personal trainers to help us achieve our fitness goals, and my criterion is that my trainer be a well-rounded and compassionate individual, while you plan to choose your trainer based on his being a 24 year-old, then I would admit that your criterion is more objective than mine.

    Now if you can demonstrate that the Catholic church is as demonstrably authoritative as your new trainer is 24, then I’ll surrender.
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  23. OK, that's all for tonight. I've got a DVR'ed Lakers victory to enjoy, and these seven-and-sevens aren't going to drink themselves.

    I'll respond to the remaining comments in the morning.
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  24. Jason,

    I don't see how your explanation is not subject to the criticism you gave of my argument. Sure being 24 is objective just as Apostolic Succession is objective, but one's decision to select a 24 year old as a trainer is only more objective "if you don’t start the clock until after he has finished doing all the subjective stuff in order to figure out what his criterion is in the first place."

    So how come the clock starts right before we say "24 years old is my criteria" but it doesn't start right before the Catholic says "Apostolic Succession is my criteria"?
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  25. Now if you can demonstrate that the Catholic church is as demonstrably authoritative as your new trainer is 24, then I’ll surrender.

    DUDE. We JUST celebrated the church's birthday last Sunday!
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  26. "And His word is the Bible, our sole authority He has given. You may choose another, but to your own peril. "

    The word of God did not begin as a "book".

    "The Scripture emerged from within the heart of a living subject-the pilgrim people of God and lives within this same subject...The People of God-the Church-is the living subject of Scripture;it is in the Church that the words of the Bible are always in the present. This also means, of course, that the People has to receive its very self from God, ultimately from the incarnate Christ; it has to let itself be ordered, guided, and led by him."

    Pope Benedict XVI Jesus of Nazareth


    "For the Catholic Christian, two lines of essential hermeneutic orientation assert themselves....The first: we trust Scripture and we base ourselves on Scripture, not on hypothetical reconstructions that go behind it and, according to their own taste, reconstruct a history in which the presumptuous idea of our knowing what can or cannot be attributed to Jesus plays a key role; which of course, means attributing to him only what a modern scholar himself has reconstructed. The second is that we read Scripture in the living community of the Church, and therefore on the basis of the fundamental decisions thanks to which it has become historically efficacious, namely, those that laid the foundations of the Church. One must not separate the text from this living context. In this sense, Scripture and Tradition form an inseparable whole, and it is this that Luther, at the dawn of the awakening of historical awareness, could not see."

    The Essential Pope Benedict XVI: His Central Writings and Speeches.
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  27. Jason,

    The significance of admitting that the place of private judgment changes for the one who becomes Catholic, by a distinct act of faith, can be assessed in relation to the question that often raises these tu quoque sort of discussions in the first place: "Who is the ultimate *interpretive* authority--the individual or the Church?"

    As you have noted, the difference, between Protestants and Catholics, is that the person who becomes Protestant retains his status as ultimate interpretive authority over and above the church that he joins, while the person who joins the Catholic Church lays down this status. The significance of this difference, regarding the search for the Church that Christ founded, depends upon whether the teaching of that Church, i.e., her solemn interpretive conclusions concerning the meaning of divine revelation, must conform to my own interpretive conclusions concerning the meaning of divine revelation, or whether my interpretations must conform to the teaching of the Church.

    That is, of course, a further question; but, since the answer seems pretty obvious (at least, few people want to explicitly acknowledge themselves as the highest interpretive authority on earth), it is also a major clue--which is why Protestant confessionalists have tried, vainly, it seems to me, to argue that Church creeds and confessions have greater authority than individual interpretations of divine revelation.
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  28. "Protestant confessionalists have tried, vainly, it seems to me ..."

    That is, vainly, given the principle of sola scriptura.
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  29. Jason:

    At the beginning of your comment addressed to me, you acknowledged the epistemic difference between the sort of assent rendered by the Catholic and that rendered by the Protestant. Then, at the end, you denied that the difference makes any difference. That should at least give you pause.

    Here's why the difference does make a difference. As a Catholic, and unlike what you imply, I would not claim that the choice to become Catholic after a careful, informed process of inquiry is determined simply by "the brute facts" of the dataset. Over at C2C, I explicitly foreswore making any such claim. My claim is that the choice between Catholicism and Protestantism is between two hermeneutical paradigms for interpreting the raw data (the "brute facts"). Of course that choice cannot be made simply by appeal to the raw data; for the choice is, precisely, between two systematic ways of interpreting the data; and if that choice were determined simply by the data, there would be no need for interpretation. One what basis, then, can one choose between the two competing HPs? Simply on the basis of which better enables us to make and apply a principled distinction between faith and opinion.

    My argument for years has been that the Protestant HP allows for no principled, as opposed to ad hoc, distinction between faith and opinion as epistemic attitudes. I don't have time, and this isn't the place, to develop that argument in full. But one bit of evidence for it is your very reply to me: from your standpoint within the Protestant HP, even a Catholic affirmation can appear only as "private interpretation." And as long as one is operating from within that paradigm, the matter can appear in no other way. But that is precisely why I rejected Protestantism during my long process of inquiry as a college student. If there is such a thing as divine revelation for the sake of our salvation, then there has to be a way of identifying and understanding it that transcends human opinion. If some form of Protestantism is true, we can't do that; if Catholicism is true, we can. And that, for me, is the clincher for Catholicism.

    Best,
    Mike
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  30. Devin,

    I understand that at Triablog they address a lot of Catholic objections to Protestantism, so you may want to check it out.
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  31. Tim,

    I don't see how your explanation is not subject to the criticism you gave of my argument. Sure being 24 is objective just as Apostolic Succession is objective, but one's decision to select a 24 year old as a trainer is only more objective "if you don’t start the clock until after he has finished doing all the subjective stuff in order to figure out what his criterion is in the first place."

    So how come the clock starts right before we say "24 years old is my criteria" but it doesn't start right before the Catholic says "Apostolic Succession is my criteria"?


    I see what you’re saying. My point was not to say that, in answering your question, my reason for selecting my criterion was any better or worse than yours. I was only furnishing you with an example that answered your question of whether it is possible for two people to choose an authority, one of which is more objective than the other as to its nature.

    Do you see the point I am trying to raise at all? If every seeker knew that apostolic succession (AS) were a sure-fire way to find the church, and if there were a big trail of breadcrumbs leading from Peter to Benedict, but then if we Protestants chose to ignore this and instead went the subjective root, then you’d certainly have a point.

    But it seems to me that the whole issue revolves around whether AS has the ecclesiological significance that you think it does (and with the possible exception of Mike L, you all seem to assume AS’s significance and wonder aloud why we Protestants choose to ignore it). If someone sincerely thinks AS doesn’t have the significance you accord to it, but then, in equally a subjective manner in which you came up with your criterion derives another criterion that he feels is more true to Scripture and history, how is that any more subjective than what you’ve done? Sure, the end result of your quest is a less individualistic situation than is the end result of the Protestant’s, but each person had to interpret loads of data to derive his standard in the first place.
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  32. Mike L,

    My claim is that the choice between Catholicism and Protestantism is between two hermeneutical paradigms for interpreting the raw data (the "brute facts").

    Yes, I do remember you arguing in this way. And I can appreciate this approach much more than the one which says, after the seeker has become Catholic, that he or she has “discovered” that Catholicism is true, that apostolic succession guarantees orthodoxy, etc. The impression such an approach gives is that the seeker just noticed for the first time that the Grand Canyon is there, even though he has been driving by it all his life.

    But I do think there is something to be said for taking an a priori approach, as in adopting a paradigm and then test-driving it to see how much of the data it explains, and how much it leaves unexplained.

    My argument for years has been that the Protestant HP allows for no principled, as opposed to ad hoc, distinction between faith and opinion as epistemic attitudes.

    Well, wouldn’t you admit that the Bible also commits this error? All over the place in the NT we are told to test competing claims and expose falsehood, and we’re never given a “principled” way to do it: “Test all things, hold fast to what is good.” Since it doesn’t say to go ask our bishop and he’ll give us the right answer, then it must follow that truth and falsehood are things that Paul’s readers could recognize and distinguish between.
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  33. Jason:

    But I do think there is something to be said for taking an a priori approach, as in adopting a paradigm and then test-driving it to see how much of the data it explains, and how much it leaves unexplained.

    There is something to be said for that. But not for most people. For people with the time, education, and talent, it's an appropriate way to conduct the process of inquiry prior to making an assent of faith in some sort of religious authority. But that requires a lot more equipment than most people have. Not only must one know how to read history and literature so as to properly contextualize facts and genres; one must also have the philosophical wherewithal to critically evaluate one's own assumptions, thus minimizing uncritical interpretation and circularity. Only a small minority of the liberally educated can even hope to do all that. Is that really what it's supposed to take to adjudicate fairly between competing claims to know and assent to the full truth revealed by God?

    Of course not: "I thank you, Father, that you have hidden these things from the wise and revealed them to little children..." There has to be a way for even the simple to distinguish between the True Faith and human opinion. That means there has to be some authority they can recognize and trust as that of God himself without having to conduct a process that can only, of itself, yield scholarly opinions.

    I was going to say that, for Protestants, such an authority is the Bible alone, i.e., sola scriptura. And I know many of them are fond of saying that. Unfortunately, it isn't true. Some posit an ecclesial authority; among free-churchers, not all believe the Bible to be inerrant. Even among Protestants who do think the Bible inerrant, there is no agreement on how to use it to resolve important doctrinal disagreements. And wherever the Protestant HP is operative, that's how things are going to be.

    Your own statement shows that. Thus:

    Well, wouldn’t you admit that the Bible also commits this error? All over the place in the NT we are told to test competing claims and expose falsehood, and we’re never given a “principled” way to do it: “Test all things, hold fast to what is good.” Since it doesn’t say to go ask our bishop and he’ll give us the right answer, then it must follow that truth and falsehood are things that Paul’s readers could recognize and distinguish between.

    Of course I would admit no such thing. In context, Paul's dictum is meant to apply primarily to "manifestations" of the Spirit, such as tongues, prophecy, and other such phenomena, not primarily to doctrine. And where it does apply to doctrine, the doctrine in question is already given by apostolic authority, so that claims to have discovered or understood divine truth have to be "tested" against the doctrine so given. Who gives it, as something "handed down"? Those who teach in Christ's name, i.e. the Apostles and their successors.

    But that is old ground. What's newer, indeed astounding to me, is that you, a Reformed pastor, ascribe to the Bible itself a rejection of any principled distinction between divine faith and human opinion. What authority can you cite for doing such a thing? I'll answer the question for you: none, other than the Protestant HP itself. Which I rejected long ago for the reason I cited in my previous comment.

    There is a difference between "testing" things against a body of teaching already given with divine authority, and "testing" things against a private interpretation of the doxastic content thereby given. The Catholic HP allows for the latter but rests ultimately on the former. The Protestant allows only for the latter, which of course is no authority at all. I guess what astounds me most is that you seem content with that.

    Best,
    Mike
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  34. St. Francis de Sales (1567-1622) (bishop of Geneva) addresses this question of interpretive authority in the "authority of the Church" section of his The Catholic Controversy. There he says:

    [BOQ]Once when Absalom wished to form a faction against his good father, he sat in the way near the gate, and said to all who went by: "There is no man appointed by the king to hear thee. O that they would make me judge over the land, that all that have business might come to me, and I might do them justice." (2 Kings xv.). Thus did he undermine the loyalty of the Israelites. But how many Absaloms have there been in our age, who, to seduce and distract the people from obedience to the Church, and to lead Christians into revolt, have cried up and down the ways of Germany and of France: "There is no one appointed by the Lord to hear and resolve differences concerning faith and religion; the Church has no power in this matter!" If you consider well, Christians, you will see that whoever holds this language wishes to be judge himself, though he does not openly say so, more cunning than Absalom.[EOQ]

    He then goes on to say:

    [BOQ] He [i.e. Beza] says again that "his party are not such as would disavow a single Council worthy of the name, general or particular, ancient or later, (take note)-" provided," says he, "that the touchstone, which is the word of God, be used to try it." That, in one word, is what all these reformers want--to take Scripture as judge. And to this we answer Amen: but we say that our difference is not there; it is here, that in the disagreements which we shall have over the interpretation, and which will occur at every two words, we shall need a judge. They answer that we must decide the interpretation of Scripture by collating passage with passage and the whole with the Symbol of faith. Amen, Amen, we say: but we do not ask how we ought to interpret the Scripture, but- who shall be the judge? For after having compared passages with passages, and the whole with the Symbol of the faith, we find by this passage: Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I shall build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, and I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven (Matt. xvi), that S. Peter has been chief minister and supreme steward in the Church of God: you say, on your side that this passage: The kings of the nations lord it over them... but you not so (Luke xxii.), or this other (for they are all so weak that I know not what may be your main authority): No one can lay another foundation, etc. (1 Cor. iii. 11), compared with the other passages and the analogy of the faith makes you detest a chief minister. The two of us follow one same way in our inquiry concerning the truth in this question - namely, whether there is in the Church a Vicar General of Our Lord - and yet I have arrived at the affirmative and you have ended in the negative; who now shall judge of our difference? Here lies the essential point as between you and me. (my emphasis) [EOQ]

    (continued below)
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  35. In other words, we're left with interpretive stalemates (and all the implications that follow from that regarding unity, witness, heresy, discipline, etc.) without an interpretive authority that does not have its authority on the basis of our agreement with his interpretation. That's why the Reformed notion of "ministerial authority" (as opposed to living visible magisterial authority), or Keith's attempt to make sola distinct from solo, are illusory, because 'ministerial authority' reduces to 'submission' to persons who sufficiently agree with one's own interpretation of Scripture. It is no authority at all, and therefore cannot be an interpretive authority. So, if there is to be an interpretive authority (and we avoid solo scriptura), then the basis for that interpretive authority has to be something other than my agreement with his interpretation of Scripture. In other words, it has to be something other than agreement of form. But the only plausible alternative to form, is matter. So if there is to be interpretive authority at all, then it has to be by material succession from Christ through the Apostles (because you can't start material succession in mid-air, so to speak, i.e. a hundred years down the road). Either it was solo from the beginning, or there was a divinely established visible magisterial interpretive authority from the beginning (which would obviously be divinely preserved till His return, if Christ intended His Church never to be solo structured) to which all Christians should be united and submitted.

    In the peace of Christ,

    - Bryan
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  36. On that verse from 1 John, St. Francis de Sales says in the same work:

    [BOQ]If the advice which St. John gives to Christians, not to believe every spirit, was ever necessary, it is so now more than ever, when so many different and contrary spirits in Christendom demand belief, on the strength of the Word of God. ... For he who caused us to be told that we must prove [i.e. test] the spirits, would not have done so unless he knew that we had infallible rules to tell the holy from the false spirit. ... Since the rule [i.e. the Word of God] does not regulate our faith save when it is applied, proposed and declared, and since this may be done well or ill, -- therefore it is not enough to know that the Word of God is the true and infallible rule of right-believing, unless I know what Word is God's, where it is, who has to propose it, apply, and declare it. ...

    There is need, then, besides this first and fundamental rule the Word of God, of another, a second rule, by which the first may be rightly and duly proposed, applied, and declared. And in order that we may not be subject to hesitation and uncertainty, it is necessary not only that the first rule, namely, the Word of God, but also the second, which proposes and applies this rule, be absolutely infallible; otherwise we shall always remain in suspense and in doubt as to whether we are not being badly directed and supported in our faith and belief, not now by any defect in the first rule, but by error and defect in the proposition and application thereof. ... But this infallibility which is required as well in the rule as in its proper application, can have its source only in God, the living and original fountain of all truth.[EOQ]

    The point is that this verse (1 John 4:1) shouldn't be presumed to be teaching a Montanistic or bosom-burning way, even bosom-burning-while-reading-Scripture sort of way, of testing the spirits. According to St. Francis, St. John is tacitly presupposing a clear rule of faith that included the role of the Church authority.

    In the peace of Christ,

    - Bryan
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  37. Mike,

    There is a difference between "testing" things against a body of teaching already given with divine authority, and "testing" things against a private interpretation of the doxastic content thereby given. The Catholic HP allows for the latter but rests ultimately on the former. The Protestant allows only for the latter, which of course is no authority at all. I guess what astounds me most is that you seem content with that.

    Well, the Protestant position is that the Bible is "a body of teaching already given with divine authority" against which subsequent teachings can be "tested." Now, you'll surely respond by saying that, since people disagree on what the Bible says, therefore it alone is an unreliable source from which to derive the truthfulness and authority of the divine message. But we Protestants just don't share that kind of hermeneutic of suspicion. We think that God's Book is more-or-less understandable. When we disagree, we simply have to "study to show ourselves approved" and love one another.

    Is it ideal, like Catholicism? No. But we're OK with leaving the glory till the resurrection and enduring the cross in the here and now.
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  38. Not that there aren't enough "red-herrings" to stamp out in threads such as these, but this is a brilliant one with no foundation in objective history at all:

    "I mean, if the Galatians were in danger of screwing up the gospel before Paul himself could even write to them (and that being one of the NT’s earliest books), then what help is it to you that by the 7th century they were “already” celebrating Mary’s assumption?"

    JJS, are you serious? First and foremost, in contemporary times, one can simply glance and both the Eastern Orthodox and the Catholics and see that the Dormition/Assumption of Mary is something believed by both. No need to review history there when both Churchs make the claim of retaining the orthodox teachings of the Apostles and authentic sacramental authority to protect that deposit of faith. But to make the claim you just made not only betrays what on can see with their own eyes today, without historical review, but a total ignorance of historical data. I don't know where you got your information from, but the Church (East and West) had already come to the belief in the Dormition/Assumption well before the 7th century. It was believed that it was an event witnessed by the Apostles themselves and handed down by them. Even a quick glance at the Catholic Encyclopedia will provide the basic irreffutable historical data for that.

    Though that has nothing to do with your original objection, I can see the allure it has to throw that out there to be gobbled up by those who use Marian doctrines as their "evidence" that the Church's teachings became polluted at some time.

    It's hard to understand how Prots can get so tied up with the Assumption anyway. Has God never taken anyone up into Heaven before their body had a chance to corrupt (rhetorical question)? If He had, then what could possibly prevent Him from taking up the body of the woman He chose before time to give birth to the Word Incarnate? What prophet was there who was given that honor? None. Assuming (pun intended) that Mary was not assumed into Heaven either before or after she fell asleep not only defies the Scripture logically, but it also requires binding God by your own rules.

    I suppose that must have been the reason why you brought it up? Because denying that the Church retained its Marks, held fast to Apostolic teaching, and that the Sacramental Authority of the Church could possible retain its charism today as it did when Christ chose His Apostles and they, in turn, ordained their successors 2000 years ago, is no different than denying that God has the power or had the will to do something he had done before with those who had lesser honor (in terms of their bringing forth our Savior). So, that means that you must have direct insight into God's mind and ability?

    The heart of the debate is the question of authority, not Mary, not infant baptism, not clerical dress. Time and time again, you are asked to identify the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church on the terms of what the fathers of the Council intended those marks to mean, yet you have never provided an adequate answer. Because many of your discussions have been honest and sincere, it surprises me so that you'd throw the "Assumption" card out using inaccurate data to set the focus elsewhere.

    Then this statement to close, "Is it ideal, like Catholicism? No. But we're OK with leaving the glory till the resurrection and enduring the cross in the here and now."

    Unfortunately, it is consistent with my complaint above. You have become content in not answering the quesitons asked of you or you seem content in the answers you've given which are incomplete at best.
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  39. JJS:

    I find myself unable to resist repeating the previous commenter's question: Are you serious? Before I get to how you've skirted the point about sola scriptura, I note that the biblical example you cited in your own previous comment to me, a verse from 1 Thessalonians, is from what is probably the earliest of Paul's letters. So it was written well before there was any such thing as the New Testament against which to test doctrinal claims. Nor does it seem likely that Paul wanted the Thessalonian church to limit its testing standard to the Old Testament, since it was in part over the question how to interpret the Old Testament that the first generation of Christians, who were Jews, disagreed with most Jews. We may be sure that Paul was not a sola-scriptura-ist.

    What Paul meant, as I'm sure you know, was to test everything against the doctrine being handed down by him and the other apostles. That tradition predated the New Testament, developed along with it, and remained wider than it. Once the biblical canon was discerned by the authority of the Church, to be sure, she had the most authoritative written record of that tradition. But even then nobody argued that it either exhausted said tradition or sufficed by itself to settle the doctrinal disputes roiling the Church. The Arians, e.g., had as strong a “biblical” case as the Athanasians, whom they criticized for introducing the unbiblical term 'homoousion' after the Council of Antioch (268) had rejected it on precisely such grounds. And although many fathers and doctors of the Church thought Scripture materially sufficient—in the sense that it contains, explicitly or implicitly, every truth of faith—none of them entertained the fantasy that Scripture alone was going to settle any significant doctrinal disputes. Of course it is possible for a sola scriptura-ist to settle for not settling doctrinal disputes that can't be settled by appeal to Scripture alone. But Protestants as a whole don't even agree on what doctrinal claims belong in that category. Pointing that out is not evidence of a "hermeneutic of suspicion." It's just a fact.

    You claim you can sort of get by with sola scriptura while continuing to show good will by studying and loving. Perhaps. But my point was that Protestants don't consistently observe sola scriptura in the first place, because they cannot do so, given the logical status of the doctrine itself and the very nature of their HP. If the individual is the judge of the church's orthodoxy, then the individual is the judge of how his church uses Scripture to teach. When Protestant churches cohere, it is for reasons other than that and in spite of that. In the final analysis, the Protestant HP is performatively self-inconsistent. And that should come as no surprise given that sola scriptura, as a doctrine, does not even pass its own test. It is a post-medieval development of the thesis of of material sufficiency, which was not understood by its originators in the way that the Reformers, for reasons of their own, came to understand it. It has proved unhelpful, at least if one is interested in distinguishing consistently between de fide doctrine and theological opinion.

    Which brings me to my final point. You have not bothered to rebut my claim that, on your approach, Christians have no principled way to make that distinction. That's a serious problem because a church which proceeds without such a distinction has no authority other than that of human reason and opinion. That's fine in science, an exercise of human reason whose methods for testing hypotheses and theories are consensual and have produced a vast wealth of knowledge and technology which cannot be gainsaid. But when our aim is to know what God has revealed, which is something supernatural and thus beyond reason alone, that won't do at all.

    Best,
    Mike
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  40. Andrew McCallumMay 29, 2010 06:23 AM
    And although many fathers and doctors of the Church thought Scripture materially sufficient—in the sense that it contains, explicitly or implicitly, every truth of faith—none of them entertained the fantasy that Scripture alone was going to settle any significant doctrinal disputes

    Mike L,

    But surely you realize that historically the Protestants don't think that Scripture alone is going to settle any significant doctrinal disputes either. The difference between the two communions is two-fold. Firstly it is whether the data that is ultimately appealed to as the final bar of authority is contained in the Scripture alone or in the Scriptures + something else. Secondly it concerns whether the final judgment of the Church of the matter under consideration is to be considered infallible itself.

    At some point both communions have to move from, to use RCC terminology, de fide to non-de fide pronouncements. The only difference that I can see is that this move is made at different points.

    Our principled distinction is that the Bible alone is infallible while everything else is not. Does this make the Protestant confessions mere opinion? I think not, but perhaps what is needed is a greater number of epistemological options. If we have to choose between either being 1) infallible or being 2) mere opinion, then perhaps you are limiting us unnecessarily. God has created us human beings in such a way that we can operate as He intended without appeals to infallibility in many areas of our lives. I would include matters of natural and spiritual verities here. And no, I am not suggesting that the laws of nature are just like spiritual laws. I'm only noting something about the way God has created us.
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  41. Andrew,

    But surely you realize that historically the Protestants don't think that Scripture alone is going to settle any significant doctrinal disputes either.

    Then you are left with solo scriptura, and all its implications, as described in Keith's book (and the beginning of our Solo Scriptura article), because if you agree that Scripture alone isn't going to settle any significant doctrinal disputes, then since you don't have a magisterium, you are left with each man to his own hermeneutical bosom-burning, each doing what is exegetically right in his own eyes.

    You can't thank God that you're not one of those solo folks, while holding what is in essence the very same position.

    The less hypocritical (but unfortunately ad hoc) way of avoiding the magisterium is to say that Scripture alone does settle all significant doctrinal disputes, and that the last two thousand years has verified this as shown by the fact that you and those happy few who agree with your interpretation of Scripture, are agreed on all significant doctrines.

    In the peace of Christ,

    - Bryan
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  42. JJS - I do see what you're saying and there is a certain (intellectual) appeal to your argument, but I have to reject it. In the same way, I see what some philosophers are saying when they say "we can't know anything - our senses are untrustworthy" and there is a certain appeal to what they're saying. Hey... yea that sounds right, we can't be absolutely sure of anything... we're fallible creatures.. we often get things wrong... therefore there's no guarantee that we get anything right.

    There's a lure in that argument and many have fallen to it. In that sense, I do see what you're saying but I believe it's a mistake. There _is_ a difference in objectivity between the Catholic position and the Protestant position even though some subjectivity is involved in both. Likewise, our senses _are_ trustworthy even though sometimes we misjudge things.

    You said you'd surrender if I could show that the Church was as demonstrably authoritative as the 24 year old was demonstrably the correct trainer (given the criteria of 24 years old). At least, thats what I assume you meant. But I never made that sort of a claim.

    I'm _not_ saying that the Catholic Church is the rightful authority of all Christians AND that this fact is as obvious, objective, and irrefutable as the fact that the Statue of Liberty is in New York City. That's not what I'm saying. Some things are more demonstrable than the correctness of the Catholic Church. In fact, many things are. My argument (our argument) is simply that the basis for selecting the Catholic Church is not subject to the same criticism against the Protestant basis for selecting a Church because the Catholic selects based on something objective (material succession) and the Protestant selects on something subjective (interpretation of Scripture). They both use reason to arrive at decisions of where to put their trust, but unless we can say that in the trainer scenario above, both parties are equally subjective, we cannot say it for the Catholic/Protestant scenario.

    On Apostolic Succession, I agree with Mike that the data-set does not compel the assent of reason as a mathematical formula does. There's plenty of wiggle room to disbelieve it (just as there's plenty of wiggle room to disbelieve Christ.) Just ask an atheist - he'll have more and better reasons to disbelieve Christ than you have to disbelieve Apostolic Succession.

    As for the case for its ecclesiological significance, well... that's coming up on CTC. I hope you'll read it and interact with it.
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  43. JJS - I do see what you're saying and there is a certain (intellectual) appeal to your argument, but I have to reject it. In the same way, I see what some philosophers are saying when they say "we can't know anything - our senses are untrustworthy" and there is a certain appeal to what they're saying. Hey... yea that sounds right, we can't be absolutely sure of anything... we're fallible creatures.. we often get things wrong... therefore there's no guarantee that we get anything right.

    There's a lure in that argument and many have fallen to it. In that sense, I do see what you're saying but I believe it's a mistake. There _is_ a difference in objectivity between the Catholic position and the Protestant position even though some subjectivity is involved in both. Likewise, our senses _are_ trustworthy even though sometimes we misjudge things.

    You said you'd surrender if I could show that the Church was as demonstrably authoritative as the 24 year old was demonstrably the correct trainer (given the criteria of 24 years old). At least, thats what I assume you meant. But I never made that sort of a claim.

    I'm _not_ saying that the Catholic Church is the rightful authority of all Christians AND that this fact is as obvious, objective, and irrefutable as the fact that the Statue of Liberty is in New York City. That's not what I'm saying. Some things are more demonstrable than the correctness of the Catholic Church. In fact, many things are. My argument (our argument) is simply that the basis for selecting the Catholic Church is not subject to the same criticism against the Protestant basis for selecting a Church because the Catholic selects based on something objective (material succession) and the Protestant selects on something subjective (interpretation of Scripture). They both use reason to arrive at decisions of where to put their trust, but unless we can say that in the trainer scenario above, both parties are equally subjective, we cannot say it for the Catholic/Protestant scenario.

    On Apostolic Succession, I agree with Mike that the data-set does not compel the assent of reason as a mathematical formula does. There's plenty of wiggle room to disbelieve it (just as there's plenty of wiggle room to disbelieve Christ.) Just ask an atheist - he'll have more and better reasons to disbelieve Christ than you have to disbelieve Apostolic Succession.

    As for the case for its ecclesiological significance, well... that's coming up on CTC. I hope you'll read it and interact with it.
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  44. Andrew:

    At some point both communions have to move from, to use RCC terminology, de fide to non-de fide pronouncements. The only difference that I can see is that this move is made at different points. Our principled distinction is that the Bible alone is infallible while everything else is not. Does this make the Protestant confessions mere opinion? I think not...If we have to choose between either being 1) infallible or being 2) mere opinion, then perhaps you are limiting us unnecessarily.

    You're still not getting my argument, which is not surprising given that, in my frustration, I gave up addressing it to you some weeks ago. Since this is a different setting, however, other readers might conceivably benefit.

    If you deny not only ecclesial infallibility, but also the ability of Scripture to settle any significant doctrinal disputes, then you just don't have any principled distinction between de fide doctrine and theological opinion. Hence you are in no position to say that you're moving from de fide to non-de fide statements. For the infallibility of Scripture--indeed, the very content and closure of the canon--is a teaching handed down by the authority of the Church. If you deny the infallibility of a visible church that is the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church, and thus the same as that of the apostles, you cannot present any of your "authoritative" affirmations about Scripture as anything more than opinions--not its inerrancy, not its content, not its interpretation.

    You keep groping for this alleged middle ground between opinion and infallibly taught doctrine, but you never produce any plausible criteria for identifying it. If you want to say, as you've tried to say before, that we can be as certain that Nicene christology is true as that the laws of gravity are true, the only way you can do it is to argue that the Nicene hermeneutic of scripture is the only rationally plausible one, just as there is no rational alternative to acknowledging the laws of gravity. You haven't tried to make such an argument because you know bloody well that no such argument can be made. The same goes for any other issue of theological significance. There is no such middle ground as you hope for.
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  45. Andrew McCallumMay 29, 2010 01:08 PM
    if you agree that Scripture alone isn't going to settle any significant doctrinal disputes, then since you don't have a magisterium, you are left with each man to his own hermeneutical bosom-burning, each doing what is exegetically right in his own eyes.

    Bryan,

    You continually try to focus on the issue of the individual making the judgment in order to try to answer my point. But Sola Scriptura is foundationally about the proper set of data upon which the Church was to base her authority. The central debate which I’m trying to get you to focus on is whether the Apostolic Church and the Church immediately following placed anything else on the effective level of Scripture or was it Scripture alone which was the standard? If you cannot come up with a good reason for adding this something else to Scripture as the foundation than it is only the Scripture which is the standard. This is Sola Scriptura Your points about my personal reaction on the matter are important but not centrally what I have asked you about.

    But since you want to speak to the issue of the personal standards of the individual believer than let’s do that. Let’s say I become a Catholic. Now what faction within the Catholic Church should I join? Let’s say I read Hans Kung’s interpretation of papal infallibility and then I read your interpretation of it. Whose interpretation should I adopt? I’m not asking you to defend papal infallibility given the data of Church tradition, I’m sure you could do this and sound quite convincing. But if you have ever read Kung you know that he is no intellectual slouch either, and if I were to speak with him I’m sure he would be equally maybe more convincing. Since you are both Roman Catholics in good standing with the RCC what is the average Reformed guy suppose to believe? Whose interpretation should he adopt? You might appeal to the Pope but the Pope’s authority to judge infallibly is just what is under consideration and should not be assumed.

    Let’s take another example going the other direction. The ultra-conservative Catholics on issues like the liberalism of Vatican II believe that their interpretation of Church tradition is correct. And after reading some of them I would say that their arguments against the typical conservative Catholic’s arguments are quite convincing. But again why should we believe your interpretation rather than one of the Ultra-traditionalist scholar’s interpretation?

    I could go on with these kinds of examples. The latitude of belief within the RCC from hard core liberal to the radical sede types of Catholics is truly staggering. And they all believe that they are faithful to the traditions of the RCC. Now I should add that I don’t think it is just a matter of your personal interpretation. You have found a relatively small clique of conservatives within the RCC and thrown in your lots with them. You hold that their collective interpretation of the tradition of the Church is the correct one. Very nice for you, but how can you justify this to someone from the outside looking in who sees all this bewildering array of belief systems within the RCC all claiming to be true to the historical Christian Church?

    I will let one of the other Protestants chime in if they don’t think I’m being fair, but we all know lots of Catholics, but outside these internet forums we don’t meet many conservatives of your stripe. You are rare birds. Now are you “happy few” less numerous that what you perceive we “happy few” to be? I don’t know, but I think you make much too much of the divisions within particularly the Reformed camp. If I were on the outside of Christianity and looking for unity I would not find it in the RCC, but a reasonable place to find it would be within the Reformed family of Churches.
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  46. Andrew McCallumMay 29, 2010 01:12 PM
    You're still not getting my argument, which is not surprising given that, in my frustration,

    I know you were frustrated, Mike. I’m not entirely sure why, but when I interacted with you I do know I spent more time trying to get you to understand my point than is typical of my discussions at CTC. The problem you seemed to have was that you were responding to points I was not making. And then the moderators stopped posting my comments half way through.

    For the infallibility of Scripture--indeed, the very content and closure of the canon--is a teaching handed down by the authority of the Church. If you deny the infallibility of a visible church that is the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church, and thus the same as that of the apostles, you cannot present any of your "authoritative" affirmations about Scripture as anything more than opinions--not its inerrancy, not its content, not its interpretation.

    This is a really old argument and a number of us have shown that it does not work, and as I remember some of the folks at CTC even conceded that you don’t need an infallible Church to have an infallible canon. If we posit a fallible Church we will still have an infallible canon if an infallible God is working through it. I’ve expanded on this argument much more in other locations and I hope I don’t need to do this again.

    You keep groping for this alleged middle ground between opinion and infallibly taught doctrine,

    And what of all the Catholic doctrines that are of less than de fide certainty? Do you really want me to pose specific examples of sententia fidei proxima statements or those teachings of less certitude? Are such statements just opinion? Perhaps what you need to do is rigorously define the term “opinion.” It has a certain connotation and denotation and maybe we are talking about different things.


    …but you never produce any plausible criteria for identifying it. If you want to say, as you've tried to say before, that we can be as certain that Nicene christology is true as that the laws of gravity are true, the only way you can do it is to argue that the Nicene hermeneutic of scripture is the only rationally plausible one, just as there is no rational alternative to acknowledging the laws of gravity. You haven't tried to make such an argument because you know bloody well that no such argument can be made.

    As I have explained to you, I’m not trying to make an exact equivalence between natural and spiritual verities. But it is worth noting that God has created us in general not to need to know something infallibly in order to know it with certainty. We must know some things infallibly and the difference between us is what the scope of those things are. But there are some things theologically we can be sure of without knowing them infallibly.

    And I argue against your idea that Nicea’s understanding of Scripture was the only one of a number of rationally plausible possibilities. As I said, if you are correct than we would have a situation where God was telling us more than one rationally plausible teaching about Himself and the Church then had to step in to tell us which of these rationally plausible teachings was the right one. Your version of Christianity has God contradicting Himself in His Word and the Church then sorting out the mess. If there is more than one logically consistent version of who God is in Scriptures than the Scriptures themselves cannot be said to be infallible. But as Augustine and Athanasius and others point out the Scriptures do not support the Arian position.
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  47. Andrew,

    The question of whether there was an equally authoritative oral Tradition as part of the "set of data" is a red herring to the Protestant ecclesial authority problem. If "Protestants don't think that Scripture alone is going to settle any significant doctrinal disputes," then you're left with all the implications of solo scriptura (whether or not you call it sola scriptura), because of not having apostolic succession. Your response is to claim that the question is whether or not there is an authoritative Tradition alongside Scripture equal in authority to Scripture. But that's a red herring. The ecclesiology problem I'm pointing out (in this broader tu quoque discussion) is a Church-authority problem, not a Tradition-authority problem (at least not directly). Nor does the magisterium have to be equal in authority to Scripture to provide the authoritative interpretation of Scripture. (Of course its interpretive authority has to be greater than the individual's interpretive authority, but that doesn't mean that the magisterium must be greater in authority than the divine deposit entrusted to it.) Since without apostolic succession there is no authoritative magisterium, and without an authoritative magisterium there is no authoritative interpretation, it follows that without an authoritative magisterium, there is no authoritative interpretation. And if there is no authoritative interpretation, then for there is no principled difference between what is de fide and what is mere opinion, for each of those "significant doctrinal disputes" that can't be solved by Scripture alone. Hence solo scriptura. See the quotation from St. Francis de Sales above.

    As for your other questions about Kung, etc., if you really want to know the answers to those questions, and they aren't merely rhetorical questions, I'd be glad to answer them. (Better yet, set up an appointment with a member of the magisterium in your area, such as Cardinal DiNardo, and ask him, or the priest to whom he refers you.)

    In the peace of Christ,

    - Bryan
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  48. Andrew McCallumMay 29, 2010 05:59 PM
    If "Protestants don't think that Scripture alone is going to settle any significant doctrinal disputes," then you're left with all the implications of solo scriptura (whether or not you call it sola scriptura), because of not having apostolic succession.

    Bryan,

    The Scriptures don't settle anything by themselves. It is the Church which settles things. The question then is how the Church goes about the task. There has to be a final bar of authority by which she judges. The difference between the Protestant and Catholics is that for Protestants this ultimate authority is just Scripture while the Catholics add onto the Scriptures. It is this something else you add that we are questioning. Fortunately we both agree that the Scriptures are foundational But we want to ask you why you want to add to them especially since there seems no historical justification for doing this from the earliest centuries of the Church If you think that our questions to you concerning how you justify the additions to Scripture as the final rule of authority are red herrings than all I can say is that you are ignoring what is critical to the division between us and just assuming your position with no justification.

    Since without apostolic succession there is no authoritative magisterium,....

    You are just stating RCC dogma here - not sure what purpose this serves.

    As for your other questions about Kung, etc., if you really want to know the answers to those questions,...

    As I explained Bryan, I'm sure you (and no doubt the good cardinal) could come up with convincing sounding arguments as to why your interpretation of the tradition of the Church is the correct one. But so could our Dr. Kung. My question to you is why we should accept your interpretation of Church tradition over against others within (and without) the RCC?
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  49. Andrew,

    You're in Houston? If you are and you are PCA I bet we at a minimum have some mutual acquaintances. We should meet up some time and share a beer. (Trappist of course).
    ReplyDelete
  50. Andrew McCallumMay 29, 2010 07:48 PM
    Bloghorn - Beer welcome and definitely blends well with theology/philosophy discussions, although I've been doing dry red wine recently to keep in line with doctor's demands to lower cholesterol. No suffering though - a glass of good red wine is a little taste of heaven....

    Email me at AJMcCallum@sbcglobal.net

    Cheers....
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  51. Andrew,

    The Scriptures don't settle anything by themselves. It is the Church which settles things.

    The problem with this claim is that without apostolic succession the term 'Church' reduces to those who sufficiently share your interpretation of Scripture. Neal and I explained this in our "Solo Scriptura" article. The nice thing about your setup is that by definition, in any "significant doctrinal disagreement," the 'Church' always decides in your favor, because those who disagree sufficiently with your interpretation of Scripture are by definition no longer part of the Church. It is in this way like being pope, without having to wear the hat or sit in Peter's chair.

    In actuality, you have no such Church, not one that can "settle" anything; you have a set of persons you've selected because they sufficiently agree with you. 'Settling things' for a Protestant just means intra-denominational leaders deciding matters in your denomination, and if you don't agree or you're forced to leave, you just start a new denomination. Sola scriptura entails branch theory, as Keith states, and nothing prohibits new 'branches.' That is why when you say "It is the Church which settles things," the word 'settle' is vacuous. It doesn't mean what you imply it means. It simply means, in your case, that arrangements can be made where you don't have to deal with the disagreement anymore, either by successfully kicking out the opposition, or by leaving the opposition and starting fresh, a bit like C.S. Lewis's depiction of hell in The Great Divorce.

    You wrote:

    There has to be a final bar of authority by which she judges. The difference between the Protestant and Catholics is that for Protestants this ultimate authority is just Scripture while the Catholics add onto the Scriptures.

    The problem with these two sentences is already in the "she." You have no she. See above. There is no possibility of discussing the "final bar of authority by which she judges" until we agree on who the "she" is and what makes her the "she," whether it is those who are in communion with the successors of St. Peter and the Apostles, or "those who sufficiently agree with my own interpretation of Scripture."

    I said, "Since without apostolic succession there is no authoritative magisterium,...". You responded, "You are just stating RCC dogma here - not sure what purpose this serves." Actually, I'm not "just stating RCC dogma." Neal and I gave a careful argument for this claim in our Solo article. That argument has not been refuted. As I explained above, there is no Protestant "authoritative magisterium" that "settles" "significant doctrinal disagreements" between Protestants. That's precisely why Lutherans and Presbyterians and Methodists and Baptists and Pentecostals and Seventh-Day Adventists, etc. are still separated, and divided on so many doctrinal points. It is why the CREC is separated from the PCA. The 'authoritative magisterium' you have is the target painted around your interpretive arrow, i.e. selecting as your 'magisterium' that denomination that most closely agrees with your interpretation, after division after division after division led to the 'branch' that it is. But nothing prevents it from dividing again, and you just again following whichever 'magisterium' most closely agrees with your interpretation of Scripture.

    This whole argument, has already taken place, and we're another step down the road from this argument. The point of this thread is not to debate the conclusion of that argument, but to consider the tu quoque, which acknowledges the conclusion (which you, however, are denying), and then responds, "but you too."

    In the peace of Christ,

    - Bryan
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  52. Andrew McCallumMay 30, 2010 05:56 AM
    This whole argument, has already taken place, and we're another step down the road from this argument. The point of this thread is not to debate the conclusion of that argument, but to consider the tu quoque, which acknowledges the conclusion (which you, however, are denying), and then responds, "but you too."

    Precisely Bryan – And this is what we are doing here - trying to determine if Catholicism is subject to the same essential challenge that is leveled at Protestantism by the Catholic apologists. And we have demonstrated again and again that Catholicism is in exactly the same place as Protestantism, except that of course the conservative Catholic of your particular stripe has to prove to us why his particular interpretation of the tradition of the Church is the correct one. It’s interesting to me that you do not even try to answer the question as to how the observer outside of Catholicism can determine which of the many competing belief systems within Catholicism, all claiming to be faithful to the tradition of the Church, is the correct interpretation. I think that you know that the average Protestant interested in Catholicism would not possibly be able to determine whether, to use one of my previous examples, Dr. Kung or you had the correct interpretation of the history of the Church on the matter of papal authority. It’s not just a matter of your interpretation disagreeing with those outside of the RCC, it’s even more problematic in that your interpretation does not agree with the vast majority of those within the RCC.

    You appeal to the judgment of the Church, but what is the Church from the standpoint of the Apostolic and Sub-apostolic witness? The differences between the early Church ecclesiology and the evolved ecclesiology of the Middle Ages are massive! But this does not seem to faze you at all. You want to hold onto the one strand of evidence, if we can call it that, and that is that the “sacramental” succession of the Medieval Church officers to the 1st century. And exactly what relation the Church of the Medieval/Renaissance/Reformation eras had in terms of theology and practice to the Church of the earliest centuries of Christianity is effectively irrelevant in your line of argumentation. It’s rather like Mike said – if she ever was the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church then must always be. Thus, case closed, forget about all evidence to the contrary. In short your position has never been refuted because you have structured the discussion in such a way that it cannot be refuted. Your system in un-falsifiable. This is exemplified in your continued request to tell us what Church is the true one if the RCC is not. Well obviously Protestantism fails here because it cannot point to one administratively unified ecclesiastical system. But the problem for you is that the 1st century Church fails here too. There was no Roman system that unified all of the congregations of Christianity and yet the Church got along just fine without Rome.
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  53. To All
    It does not matter what Dr. Kung , Mr. Cross, myself, or any catholic personally believe. It is what The Church teaches and that can be found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
    The submitting of ones will over to the teachings of The Church is not up for ones personal interruption of what the teachings mean, the teachings are well defined. Yes it is true most Catholics do not know what the teaching are, and this is the fault of the church as a whole, every catholic must take responsibility for the poor catechesis of the faith. If Dr. Kung, Brian or myself start to believe or teach a different teaching then what the Church teaches and do this publicly as Dr. Kung has, then we do this without the authority of the Church and are on our own. It is not to believe in a philosophy and find a church to go along with what we believe, but to submit our will to a greater teaching authority then ourselves. To find what was taught about Jesus at the earliest time in the history of human thought and find a institution that teaches now what was taught then.

    Peace Rob
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  54. Jason,

    You made this comment on one of your previous posts regarding Federal Vision:

    "Sure, we can boot someone out of all NAPARC denominations, but that person can just go join the CREC, or the EPC, or Calvary Chapel, or the LCMS, or some Reformed Baptist fellowship, and in their minds, everything’s fine.

    “But those aren’t properly-ordered congregations that bear the marks of a true church,” we protest (and in some cases I agree).

    "But if you think about it, they most likely think the same thing about us, and there is absolutely no way we can ever settle the dispute of who’s right beyond each side complaining that the other fails to conform to his interpretation of Scripture."

    http://www.creedcodecult.com/2010/03/kind-of-thing-up-with-which-i-will-not.html


    “bear the marks of a true church”

    "each side complaining that the other fails to conform to his interpretation of Scripture."


    What are the “marks of a true church’? Are the marks of a true church based upon individual interpretation of Scripture? If the "marks of a true church" are found in Scripture can Catholics really be accused of tu quopue or are they doing something which you yourself say they should do, look for, “the marks of the true church“. Apostolic Succession is as Scriptural as is the Trinity is. Apostolic is a mark of the true church.

    Should someone look for a congregation that “bears the marks of a true church” or not? Regardless of where that journey takes them , even if that journey ends at the doors of the Catholic Church?
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  55. Andrew McCallumMay 30, 2010 12:55 PM
    If Dr. Kung, Brian or myself start to believe or teach a different teaching then what the Church teaches and do this publicly as Dr. Kung has, then we do this without the authority of the Church and are on our own.

    Rob - Kung is not really on his own. He is a respected scholar and many in the RCC agree with him. When you say that he is on his own in effect you are saying that he is in a faction of the RCC that disagrees with your faction. Kung is convinced that he is in line with historic Church teaching just as I'm sure you are. So how would you prove to the interested inquirer that that he is wrong and you are right?
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  56. Andrew,

    In your previous comment (from 5:59 pm yesterday) you said, "It is the Church which settles things." So last night I pointed out why that is impossible within Protestantism, and your response at 5:56 AM this morning is that the Church cannot even settle how to interpret her own statements. So either I should believe that in twelve hours time you shifted your position from "It is the Church which settles things" to denying that the Church can even settle how to interpret her own statements, or you're just being argumentative, and making whatever claims are necessary (even if contradictory) in an attempt to prop up your position.

    I'll assume the more charitable of the two, which is that you saw the merit of the argument in my previous comment, and were persuaded, and have done a 180 in those twelve hours. In that case, perhaps it would be better to discuss this question after you have given more careful thought to this question, and are more settled in your position.

    In the peace of Christ,

    - Bryan
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  57. Renee,

    If I might, the Belgic Confession Article 29 summarizes the three marks: “The true church can be recognized if it has the following marks: The church engages in the true preaching of the gospel; it makes use of the pure administration of the sacraments as Christ instituted them; it practices church discipline for correcting faults.”

    Yes, someone should look for a congregation that bears these marks. But from a Reformed point of view, this wouldn’t lead one to the RCC, since what is meant by the first mark (engages in the true preaching of the gospel) is precisely what Rome opposes, namely sola fide. But this also comes back to presuppositions. The Catholic is driven by ecclesia (i.e., where is the church?), while the Protestant is driven by scriptura(i.e., where is the gospel?). It’s not hard to see how, if one is driven by the former, he ends up in Rome. And it’s not hard to see how, if one is driven by the latter, he ends up in Geneva. Once in Rome, the gospel is then defined, and once in Geneva the church is defined.

    BTW, Protestantism does believe in apostolic succession, but, where Rome points to Peter in Matthew 16 (“Thou art Peter”), we point to Paul who was directly and explicitly appointed by Jesus in Acts 22:

    “Then he said: ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you to know his will and see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. You will be his witness to all men of what you have seen and heard.’”

    It sure seems hard to deny that the Matthew 16 text is more obscure than the Acts 22 text in terms of who was appointed for apostolic authority. Then there’s the whole row about seating arrangements between these two fellows, who was in the right and who was in the wrong. Sure seems like if Peter had the raw material needed for apostolic authority he’d have lost that fight. Paul won and yet there is no record of him deeming a papal successor, at least that I’ve ever heard of. Odd to point to a guy who, per the scriptural witness, not only got the gospel wrong but was put in his place about it.
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  58. Andrew McCallumMay 30, 2010 07:53 PM
    In your previous comment (from 5:59 pm yesterday) you said, "It is the Church which settles things." So last night I pointed out why that is impossible within Protestantism,

    Bryan - OK, yesterday at 3:04pm you were taking about the Scripture alone settling things and what I was trying to say was that the Scriptures are not doing the setting, the Scriptures are the proper rule of authority for the Church which does the settling. Catholicism wants to add certain parts of the tradition of the Church, as carefully qualified by the RCC, to Scripture. We agree on the Scripture part but not on the de fide tradition of the RCC that is included along with Scripture as the final rule of authority. So I ask you about what justification the RCC has for including the tradition over and beyond the Scriptures as part of the infallible tradition God has given us. Your answer is that my question is a red herring. I'm sorry to hear that answer, it seems like a appropriate question to me.

    ...last night I pointed out why that is impossible within Protestantism, and your response at 5:56 AM this morning is that the Church cannot even settle how to interpret her own statements.

    I'm reading my 5:56am statement and I'm not sure what exactly what you are responding to here. In my comments on the interpretation of tradition I was noting that there are multiple possible interpretations of the tradition of the Church and the RCC reflects many of these interpretations in the teaching of her priests and bishops. Catholics today gravitate towards one faction or another within the RCC that they agree with. So one can find a safe haven in the RCC most anywhere along the continuum from the very liberal to the ultra-conservative. And so I think it's a good question for the interested inquirer to ask as to which of the competing belief systems in the RCC he should join were he to become Catholic. These are all teachings by Catholic teachers in good standing within the RCC and all these teachers believe they are faithful to the tradition of the Church.

    When you say that appealing to the Church is impossible with Protestantism I think you mean that we cannot appeal to a visible Church which is governed by just one administrative authority. If so, I would agree, we can't do this. But then neither can the Church of the first century. You appeal to the necessity of one administrative body governed by the Rome See but I think that the principle of unity you are appealing to is a philosophical one rather than a historical one.
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  59. Andrew
    Sorry I could not get back to you sooner. Why is Dr kung a respected scholar? Who said he is a respected scholar? The Church does not give Dr. Kung authority to teach in her name so his opinion means nothing
    It is not a matter of he said, she said, but a matter of truth and there can only be one truth , and what is this truth? You tell me
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  60. Zirm
    Christianity is only a continuation or fulfillment of the Jewish religion why is Paul considered the 13th apostle?
    ReplyDelete
  61. Andrew,

    You wrote:

    what I was trying to say was that the Scriptures are not doing the setting, the Scriptures are the proper rule of authority for the Church which does the settling.

    Again, as I pointed out two days ago, what makes this claim problematic is that without apostolic succession, the term 'Church' here simply refers to those who sufficiently share your interpretation of Scripture. So when you say "the Church ... does the settling," what this amounts to is "for any interpretive dispute, the resolution of that dispute is found by following those who sufficiently agree with Andrew McCallum's interpretation of Scripture." Another way of putting that is, "Andrew McCallum is the Vicar of Christ on earth."

    So given your claim that the Church settles interpretive and theological disputes, and given your denial of apostolic succession and your defining of the Church by way of sufficient agreement with your own interpretation of Scripture, it follows that you haven't abandoned papism; you've just appropriated it to yourself. But the reason I follow Pope Benedict, rather than follow 'Pope McCallum,' is not because I agree with Pope Benedict's interpretation over yours. That would be to do exactly what you're doing, i.e. make myself out to be pope. The reason I follow Pope Benedict rather than follow 'Pope McCallum' is that Pope Benedict has divine authorization from Christ, through St. Peter, and the succession, but you have no divine authorization. You don't have divine authorization such that your interpretation is the touchstone of apostolic orthodoxy by which the Church is defined and to which all Christians should devoutly adhere. The contradiction in your position is that you are explicitly denying papal authority while performatively affirming papal authority by defining the Church as those who sufficiently agree with your own interpretation of Scripture, and claiming that the Church settles interpretive disputes. If I'm going to follow a pope of the Church, it isn't going to be someone who made himself [out to be] pope, but only someone whom Christ has authorized.

    In the peace of Christ,

    - Bryan
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  62. Andrew McCallumMay 31, 2010 11:42 AM
    So when you say "the Church ... does the settling," what this amounts to is "for any interpretive dispute, the resolution of that dispute is found by following those who sufficiently agree with Andrew McCallum's interpretation of Scripture."

    So your challenge is to figure out how you can get us to follow Bryan Cross' interpretation of the history of the Church. Or more exactly how you can get us to follow the segment of the RCC that Bryan Cross agrees with. The conservative Catholics in the RCC that you would agree with believe that their interpretation of the Church's history is the correct one. And the challenge to you is how to prove it to those outside the Catholic Church, but also to the many competing belief systems that are inside the Catholic Church.

    You point us to the four marks of the Church and so we OK, let's talk about whether the Church at the Reformation was one, holy, etc in any reasonable definition of these terms. But then it seems that you don't want to talk about that. To put it as Mike L did, if the Church was ever one, holy, catholic, Apostolic, she always was. So in fact you don't want to talk about these marks, but just want to note that the leaders of the RCC at the Reformation were the valid successors of the leaders of the Church in the first century. When you boil it down this seems to be the only piece of evidence that is offered us. And from our standpoint this is difficult to accept because the only similar case we are aware of in the history of God's people is when the leaders of the Sanhedrin make a similar claim to Christ that their literal succession from Abraham substantiates their claims that they are the true covenant people of God.

    I'm not being argumentative, but rather I'm truly intrigued as to why some folks make the Reformed to Catholic jump based on the reading of the documents of the Church and the arguments particularly on sacramental succession. The one thing that seems to be a thread among some of these people is that they have an attraction to one extent or another to a Platonic idea of unity. Now I could see that if someone had bought into such an idea in general that it could significantly color their understanding of unity as they dwell on ecclesiastical matters.
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  63. Andrew,

    Look, I agree with your conclusions and all, but I don't understand your line of reasoning here. It seems to me that Rome officially teaches an unbroken succession (as in, Rome teaches this in her Catechism and other dogmatic docs), while at the same time certain Catholics individually teach to the contrary.

    I don't see why this is a huge problem. What you'd need to show in order to prove (what I think is) your point is that the Church itself dogmatically taught both the conservative and liberal versions of Catholicism. I have heard some pretty interesting arguments for this very thing (comparing V1 and V2, for example), but it doesn't work comparing V1 and Hans Kung.
    ReplyDelete
  64. Andrew (May 29, 1:12pm):

    If we posit a fallible Church we will still have an infallible canon if an infallible God is working through it.

    As you had said, that is indeed old ground. There, as here, you misunderstand what is at stake. Nobody denies that it's logically possible for God to give an infallible canon to a fallible church. What Bryan and I claim, rather, is this: it is not possible to know that the canon is either the canon or infallible without an infallible church. Moreover, Protestants don't even agree that we can infallibly know that the canon contains all and only the writings God inspired. So the hypothesis that an infallible canon has been given to a fallible church is only a hypothesis; it cannot be known to be true without thereby being refuted.

    I had written that "You keep groping for this alleged middle ground between opinion and infallibly taught doctrine..." You replied by asking: "And what of all the Catholic doctrines that are of less than de fide certainty?" That is simply to misconstrue where I was directing my point. I was arguing that, given your epistemology, you have no principled way of distinguishing between what's de fide and what's opinion. The Catholic Church does, and I've consistently explained how. But if one lacks a principled way to distinguish between what's de fide and what's opinion, then one lacks a principled way to locate anything between them. That's why the middle ground you're groping for is unavailable to you.

    I argue against your idea that Nicea’s understanding of Scripture was the only one of a number of rationally plausible possibilities. As I said, if you are correct than we would have a situation where God was telling us more than one rationally plausible teaching about Himself and the Church then had to step in to tell us which of these rationally plausible teachings was the right one. Your version of Christianity has God contradicting Himself in His Word and the Church then sorting out the mess. If there is more than one logically consistent version of who God is in Scriptures than the Scriptures themselves cannot be said to be infallible. But as Augustine and Athanasius and others point out the Scriptures do not support the Arian position.

    That, I'm afraid, is just a tissue of fallacies. From the fact that Scripture is not perspicuous enough to settle significant doctrinal disputes by itself--which you've already conceded in your discussion with Bryan--it does not follow that God is contradicting himself or that Scripture is not inerrant. All that follows is that God's communication of the deposit of faith to us requires something beyond Scripture, i.e. Tradition and the Magisterium. It is possible to interpret Scripture in any number of internally consistent ways; all that means is that Scripture can be plausibly misunderstood, not that it is inherently "a mess." That the Nicene hermeneutic is the "right" way to interpret Scripture is something which took both lengthy debate and an exercise of ecclesial authority to make clear to people. That's just historical fact. It doesn't mean that everybody who disagreed with that hermeneutic was either stupid or ill-willed, which is what the doctrine of the perspicuity of Scripture would entail. It just means that Scripture alone, outside the context of Tradition and the Magisterium, isn't enough to settle significant doctrinal disputes---which you already knew.

    Best,
    Mike
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  65. Perhaps it would be interesting here to consider whether the OC Scriptures were only materially sufficient for Isreal before Christ, or formally sufficient as well.

    If the answer is that they were not formally sufficient, but the entire Bible is, then the next question would be "why?"
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  66. Andrew McCallumMay 31, 2010 11:58 AM
    Why is Dr kung a respected scholar? Who said he is a respected scholar? The Church does not give Dr. Kung authority to teach in her name so his opinion means nothing

    Rob - Well you can read the reviews of his many works. I'm not sure that the conservatives in the RCC would say that he is not a respected scholar, only that they don't respect him and in some of his arguments they have fundamental disagreements with the way he utilizes Church tradition.

    But my point to Bryan was that Kung is still Catholic. Yes, he is not allowed to teach in Catholic institutions as he once did, but he is still Catholic. He represents another segment of the RCC that disagrees with yours. I'm sure you you feel that the conservatives in the RCC that you would agree with have the correct interpretation of Church tradition, but it's not obvious to those of outside the RCC why you have any more claim to say this than those in the segment of the RCC that Kung agrees with.
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  67. Andrew:

    Regarding Küng, he has openly denied both the dogma of papal infallibility as defined by Vatican I, which makes him "anathema," and the doctrine of the infallibility of the ordinary and universal magisterium as set forth by Vatican II, a council of which he otherwise approves. He is a heretic by any definition of the term known in the Catholic Church. That he is not formally excommunicated is simply a political calculation designed to avoid making him a bigger media star as a false martyr. He has already condemned himself by his statements and actions.

    The sedevacantists don't need to be formally excommunicated, the way Archbishop Lefevbre was, because they have already separated themselves from communion with Rome, and nobody is in danger of thinking otherwise. But neither they nor Küng can be said to represent legitimate Catholic viewpoints. They represent viewpoints held by people who are formally but not materially Catholic, which is not at all the same thing.
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  68. Andrew,

    On Saturday, at 5:59 pm you said, "It is the Church which settles things." Then at 5:56 AM Sunday morning you claimed the Church cannot even settle how to interpret her own statements. Then at 7:53 pm Sunday evening (that same day) you said that it is "the Church which does the settling." Then today (Monday) at 11:42 AM you resort back to your claim that the Church cannot settle how to interpret her own teachings, because, in your opinion, there is simply no way to know who is right among the "many competing belief systems that are inside the Catholic Church."

    You have flip-flopped on this issue now three times in three days. Saturday evening you thought the Church could settle disputes. Sunday morning you thought it could not. Sunday evening you thought it could. Monday morning you thought it could not.

    In order for me to reason with you, you'll have to stop the whack-a-mole routine and take a principled position. Either the Church can settle disputes (in which case there is a way to adjudicate between the "competing belief systems") or you'll need to give up the notion that the Church can settle theological and interpretive disputes, and embrace solo scriptura. You cannot simultaneously maintain that the Church can and cannot settle interpretive disagreements, at least not without being schizophrenic. If you abandon the law of non-contradiction, then not only do you lose the possibility of rational dialogue, you also lose the possibility of preserving sanity. So, once and for all, which is it: Can the Church settle interpretive disagreements, or is the Church unable to settle interpretive disagreements? If you choose the former, then of course the Church can adjudicate between the "competing belief systems" to which you refer. But if you choose the latter (i.e. that the Church cannot settle interpretive disagreements) then you have chosen solo scriptura, and all its implications.

    In the peace of Christ,

    - Bryan
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  69. Bryan:

    Andrew's flip-flopping about whether "the Church" can settle doctrinal disputes puts him in a rather large company. Among confessional Protestants, there's a deep ambiguity about the concept of authority. It seems to me that they confuse empirical authority, which is really just power, with normative authority, which requires a pedigree from an authority whose legitimacy is beyond question. Andrew's church has empirical authority in that some people join it and support it, thus giving it power. But deep down he knows it has no normative authority. It came to be and continues only because a certain minority of the baptized happen to agree with its interpretation of Scripture.

    In fact, I think they've got a similar problem about Scripture. Sometimes they want to say that it's perspicuous, and thus can "settle" doctrinal disputes, as if anybody who rejected their hermeneutic thereof must be either stupid or ill-willed. That would be the "normative" stance, which we see in the claim that the Nicene hermeneutic of Scripture is the only rationally plausible one. But since they know quite well that history affords no evidence of such a view of things, they can't say, as an "empirical" matter, that Scripture settles anything by itself. And neither do most of them really want to say that non-Nicenes, or non-Reformed, who call themselves Christians are just stupid or ill-willed. So people like Andrew caught between a rock and a hard place.

    Best,
    Mike
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  70. Andrew McCallumJun 1, 2010 05:02 AM
    On Saturday, at 5:59 pm you said, "It is the Church which settles things." Then at 5:56 AM Sunday morning you claimed the Church cannot even settle how to interpret her own statements.

    Bryan - I have not flip flopped on anything. I told you that I did not know where you were getting the idea from my 5:56AM posting saying that "the Church cannot even settle how to interpret her own statements." In my last post I tried to surmise how you might have come to this idea, but you did not comment on that or give me any further idea as to what statement(s) of mine you derived this idea from. But I did not say this that I can see. If you think I did then you should quote me.

    I do stand behind what I said about the Bible not settling anything. Perhpas I'm being too fussy about the grammar/sematics here, but I'm trying to be exact here. The Bible is a book, and books don't settle things. People use the data in books to settle things. So the Early Church used the the information in the Bible to settle things. Rome later tried to make the case that there is something further to the Scriptures that is also part of this set of infallible data upon which her decisions are based. I then ask you for justification concerning this something else being raised to a level of infallible status and you respond that such inquiries are red herrings. So there is the impasse.
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  71. Andrew McCallumJun 1, 2010 05:33 AM
    it is not possible to know that the canon is either the canon or infallible without an infallible church.

    I feel that these discussions are in some ways analogous to discussions with certain post-modern philosophers who tell us that we cannot know what is real. These philosophers ardently attempt to convince their listerers that they have epistemological problems that they never reazlized before. And I think that all these philosophers tell us in the end is that if we adopt the assumptions of post-modernism then we are lead to the ultimate conclusion that we cannot really know anything.

    So likewise, I don't expect you to divorce yourself from your RCC assumptions as you interact with me, but all I hear you saying is that if we take RCC assumptions concerning what we know of Scripture, tradition, etc then we cannot possibly know with certainty what the Scriptures are if we deny an infallible Church. So my questions to draw you out concerning de fide matters vs those of less theological certainty is an attempt to ascertain why you believe the statement above. But you did not seem to want to answer this.

    I really don't know why you think Protestants should have this epistemological problem if we are agreed that there is God who can and does speak infallibly. If we believe in an infallible God who speaks through His Word, both in the writing of the elements of this Word and the collection of these books, then where is the issue? You are certain because you are sure that an infallible Church guarantees an infallible canon, we are certain because we are sure that an infallible God guarantees an infallible canon. Your problem is that if your supposition about the Church is wrong then your certainty vanishes. This cannot happen in the Protestant schema unless we come to question that God is infallible.

    And just briefly concerning why I chose Kung and the sedevacantist types of Catholics as examples. Both of these are obviously Catholic folks who really push the envelope, most of your heretics don't go to that extreme. But cases like the questions the sedes raise about liberalism and Vatican II are really very informative. I've heard you try to harmonize statements from Vatican II and Cantate Domino to take one example. This is no easy harmonization to put it mildly. The obvious resolution is to do what the sedes do and say that Vatican II is wrong. Here is one interpretation of the tradition of the Church that obviously does not agree with yours, but makes a heck of a lot of sense given the historical data at hand.
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  72. Look, I agree with your conclusions and all, but I don't understand your line of reasoning here…but it doesn't work comparing V1 and Hans Kung.

    It seems like Andrew is responding to the Catholic claim that factions within Protestantism prove that Protestantism sets up the individual as final authority (as in, Bryan’s recent points about “Pope McCallum”). And all he’s saying is that if there is a straight line from factions to individual autonomy then what are we to make of the factions in Catholicism? Which seems relevant to the post’s point about tu quoque, because, just as we are disallowed private judgment while they aren’t, apparently we mayn’t have factions without it proving we’re Anabaptist Rationalists but they may have factions because, well, who knows because it hasn’t really been answered yet. I’m betting it’s something like “because we’re Catholic and you aren’t.”

    But one thing that remains intriguing to me (something this conversations brings out) is how Catholics lump Protestants into latent evangelicals (Bryan’s line of reasoning here), and how evangelicals lump Protestants into frustrated Catholics (the Anabaptists and their evangelical descendants telling us we “haven’t reformed nearly far enough”). To the extent that they think there are two camps instead of three in western Christianity—Catholicism and everyone else—they both have more in common than either would be willing to admit
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  73. Andrew:

    These philosophers ardently attempt to convince their listerers that they have epistemological problems that they never reazlized before.

    Yes, several Catholic philosophers have been trying to get you to see a problem that you don't see. I've personally known quite a number of people who were Protestants, came to see the problem with Protestantism, and as a result became Catholic.

    I don't expect you to divorce yourself from your RCC assumptions as you interact with me, but all I hear you saying is that if we take RCC assumptions concerning what we know of Scripture, tradition, etc then we cannot possibly know with certainty what the Scriptures are if we deny an infallible Church.

    The problem I've been vainly striving to point out to you, despite my success with many others, does not depend on adopting any distinctively RC assumptions. Every time you assert that it does, I produce arguments showing that it doesn't. You ignore those arguments because, I suspect, it's a lot easier for your to dismiss their premises as "RC assumptions," which they aren't, than to produce actual arguments that they are false.

    If we believe in an infallible God who speaks through His Word, both in the writing of the elements of this Word and the collection of these books, then where is the issue?

    The issue is the radical difference between your reasons for believing that--which many Protestants do not, BTW--and ours. Your reasons boil down to scholarship and bosom-burning, as the arguments of Luther and Calvin clearly show. Neither of those yield anything more than personal opinions. But if one sees the Church as the Body of Christ, visible, indefectible, and sharing in his teaching authority as her head, then one has something beyond personal opinion on which to base your high view of Scripture.

    Your problem is that if your supposition about the Church is wrong then your certainty vanishes. This cannot happen in the Protestant schema unless we come to question that God is infallible.

    Not only can it happen in the Protestant schema; both history and the present prove that it does. Many Protestants deny that Scripture is inerrant, and those who affirm its inerrancy disagree radically about what doctrinal conclusions can be drawn from it. That's because, once one denies ecclesial infallibility, one leaves oneself unable to offer a principled, as opposed to ad hoc, distinction between faith and opinion. Even Rev. Stellman has recognized that, in this very thread. If you don't, then the problem is that you're the one who can't think outside his own box.

    I've heard you try to harmonize statements from Vatican II and Cantate Domino to take one example. This is no easy harmonization to put it mildly. The obvious resolution is to do what the sedes do and say that Vatican II is wrong. Here is one interpretation of the tradition of the Church that obviously does not agree with yours, but makes a heck of a lot of sense given the historical data at hand.

    Well, the "obvious resolution" of the problem of evil is to deny that God is both all-powerful and perfectly good, which many religions and some Christian theologians do. But that doesn't make it true. Similarly, what you describe as the obvious resolution of this problem of ecclesiology--which I've never considered a problem to begin with--would entail that virtually the entire Catholic episcopate has been wrong for generations about a matter on which most people, including most Catholics, take it to be right. It's much more likely that the far-out dissidents have misunderstood something, and that's what I've shown, to quite a number of people's satisfaction. But of course I understand why it's in your interest to pretend I've shown nothing of the kind.
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  74. Andrew,

    If you really do believe that the Church can settle things, then two things follow. First, your repeated objection (in this thread) that there is no way to know which of the "competing belief systems" that one might find among Catholics is the Church's teaching, is falsified. The Church's teaching can be known in the very way that [you acknowledge] the Church "settles" theological and interpretive disputes. Insofar as Küng rejects the dogmas defined at Vatican I, he dissents from the Church's teaching, and makes himself into [at least] a material heretic. Contrast that the attitude of St. Thomas as he lay dying:

    The end was near; extreme unction was administered. When the Sacred Viaticum was brought into the room he pronounced the following act of faith: "If in this world there be any knowledge of this sacrament stronger than that of faith, I wish now to use it in affirming that I firmly believe and know as certain that Jesus Christ, True God and True Man, Son of God and Son of the Virgin Mary, is in this Sacrament." Then he added: "I receive Thee, the price of my redemption, for Whose love I have watched, studied, and laboured. Thee have I preached; Thee have I taught. Never have I said anything against Thee: if anything was not well said, that is to be attributed to my ignorance. Neither do I wish to be obstinate in my opinions, but if I have written anything erroneous concerning this sacrament or other matters, I submit all to the judgment and correction of the Holy Roman Church, in whose obedience I now pass from this life."

    Similarly, Catholic philosopher Dietrich von Hildebrand, just before he died (in 1977), said this to his wife about all of his writings: "If you find a word that is not in line with the Church, burn it!"

    Second, as I explained above (May 29, 8:34 PM), the term 'Church' reduces to those who sufficiently share your interpretation of Scripture, which makes the claim of 'settling' anything entirely vacuous. For example, no legal dispute could ever be settled in court if who counts as the judge were defined as "whoever agrees with me." If you think that PCA elders are the judges that have the authority to settle the theological and interpretive disagreement between Protestants and Catholics, then on what ground or basis do they have this authority except that they agree with your interpretation of Scripture? By contrast, if the successor of St. Peter retains the "keys of the Kingdom" that Christ gave to St. Peter, then the successor of St. Peter has a divine authority that is not based on my agreement with him, but on Christ's authorization of him.

    In the peace of Christ,

    - Bryan
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  75. "Look, I agree with your conclusions and all, but I don't understand your line of reasoning here."

    How does one agree with the conclusion if one doesn't agree with the premise?
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  76. Andrew McCallumJun 2, 2010 03:42 AM
    …. several Catholic philosophers have been trying to get you to see a problem that you don't see. I've personally known quite a number of people who were Protestants, came to see the problem with Protestantism, and as a result became Catholic.

    But your examples are still rather rare stories. There are myriads of more Protestant theologians and philosophers who study the same things as your “quite a number” but don’t see any reason to convert to Catholicism. But the fact that some do is what intrigues me. I am very interested in what it is about certain people which makes them open to such arguments. I’m sure you don’t think that the few Protestants who do go the Catholic (or Orthodox) route are smarter or can perceive your philosophical arguments more ably than other Protestants, or do you?


    The problem I've been vainly striving to point out to you, despite my success with many others, does not depend on adopting any distinctively RC assumptions. Every time you assert that it does, I produce arguments showing that it doesn't. You ignore those arguments because

    Mike, you are being vague and nebulous here. What arguments have I ignored? Please give me an example. Let me give you an example of where the assumptions work into the Catholic arguments. If I were going to question a Protestant on his ecclesiology the first thing I would ask him is how Reformed ecclesiology developed in history and what are the biblical, historical, and philosophical influences that have been brought to bear on the question. Now I don’t want to say that no Catholic has ever asked me a question like this but it is rare. But of course the question that I do get asked all the time is what Church is the true Church if the Catholic Church is not? Talk about a loaded question! And I explain that if I accept the assumption behind the question than Protestantism fails (as does the first century Church incidentally). But we are not trying to show an analogy to the RCC in Reformed theology. We are rejecting the very assumption that is bound up in the question to us. But it does not matter how many times I go through the explanation I still get the same question the next time around.

    It’s particularly puzzling since the highly evolved Medieval Church has little relation to the Church of the 1st century by the any measure (four marks for instance). But I don’t think concerns you at all. It is only a matter of succession and even if I can prove that the Medieval Church has no relation to the Apostolic or sub-apostolic Church it will not change your opinion one bit because you are starting with the assumption that the Church cannot err. It does not seem to be something historical and biblical which drives you to this position, but an assumption about the very nature of “Church” You try to give some sort of biblical evidence for it (interpreted by the very Church you are trying to justify) and come up with statements about Christ promising to never leave the Church and so on – in other words nothing that will prove the validity of the Catholic Church unless, like you, you assume it at the outset. You do make this assumption, right? If I have that right then all the arguments I could give you to the contrary are worthless, correct?
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  77. Andrew McCallumJun 2, 2010 03:43 AM
    The issue is the radical difference between your reasons for believing that--which many Protestants do not, BTW--and ours. Your reasons boil down to scholarship and bosom-burning, as the arguments of Luther and Calvin clearly show. Neither of those yield anything more than personal opinions. But if one sees the Church as the Body of Christ, visible, indefectible, and sharing in his teaching authority as her head, then one has something beyond personal opinion on which to base your high view of Scripture.

    You are just giving me one more opinion concerning the Church. The very assumption you start with is an opinion about the Church, and one which has no basis in the history of the Early Church. When you posit an infallible Church you are just pushing the question of interpretation back one step. How then do we interpret the tradition that is stated to be infallible? You think it is a problem to say that our interpretation of the Bible is fallible and so you posit an infallible tradition to interpret the infallible Scriptures. But then what happens if you make a fallible interpretation of the infallible tradition? At some point, Mike, the RCC promulgates things that are not de-fide. They make fallible interpretations. Are these “just opinions” and if so, then what is their epistemological value?

    So let’s say a given promulgation is made by bishops but it is not infallible? This is just an opinion I assume. Now let’s say that the bishops declare that the pronouncement was indeed infallible? Why should the congregations accept that the bishop’s judgment about their own infallibility? What about saying that a given statement is infallible makes it infallible in your mind? Or are you assuming that the very nature of the work that is being done in certain situations (i.e. ecumenical council with pope’s blessing) must be infallible? Do you start with the a presupposition of infallibility in these situations or do you try to prove it?


    Out of time….
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  78. Andrew,

    Please read Infallibility on the New Advent site. It addresses many of your questions.

    “Now it cannot be denied by anyone who admits that Christ established a visible Church at all, and endowed it with any kind of effective teaching authority, that this commission, with all it implies, was given not only to the Apostles personally for their own lifetime, but to their successors to the end of time, "even to the consummation of the world". And assuming that it was the omniscient Son of God Who spoke these words, with a full and clear realization of the import which, in conjunction with His other promises, they were calculated to convey to the Apostles and to all simple and sincere believers to the end of time, the only reasonable interpretation to put upon them is that they contain the promise of infallible guidance in doctrinal teaching made to the Apostolic College in the first instance and then to the hierarchical college that was to succeed it.

    In the first place it was not without reason that Christ prefaced His commission by appealing to the fullness of power He Himself had received: "All power is given to me", etc. This is evidently intended to emphasize the extraordinary character and extent of the authority He is communicating to His Church — an authority, it is implied, which He could not personally communicate were not He Himself omnipotent. Hence the promise that follows cannot reasonably be understood of ordinary natural providential guidance, but must refer to a very special supernatural assistance.

    In the next place there is question particularly in this passage of doctrinal authority — of authority to teach the Gospel to all men — if Christ's promise to be with the Apostles and their successors to the end of time in carrying out this commission means that those whom they are to teach in His name and according to the plenitude of the power He has given them are bound to receive that teaching as if it were His own; in other words they are bound to accept it as infallible. Otherwise the perennial assistance promised would not really be efficacious for its purpose, and efficacious Divine assistance is what the expression used is clearly intended to signify. Supposing, as we do, that Christ actually delivered a definite body of revealed truth, to be taught to all men in all ages, and to be guarded from change or corruption by the living voice of His visible Church, it is idle to contend that this result could be accomplished effectively — in other words that His promise could be effectively fulfilled unless that living voice can speak infallibly to every generation on any question that may arise affecting the substance of Christ's teaching.
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  79. Without infallibility there could be no finality regarding any one of the great truths which have been identified historically with the very essence of Christianity; and it is only with those who believe in historical Christianity that the question need be discussed. Take, for instance, the mysteries of the Trinity and Incarnation. If the early Church was not infallible in her definitions regarding these truths, what compelling reason can be alleged today against the right to revive the Sabellian, or the Arian, or the Macedonian, or the Apollinarian, or the Nestorian, or the Eutychian controversies, and to defend some interpretation of these mysteries which the Church has condemned as heretical?

    One may not appeal to the inspired authority of the Scriptures, since for the fact of their inspiration the authority of the Church must be invoked, and unless she be infallible in deciding this one would be free to question the inspiration of any of the New Testament writings. Nor, abstracting from the question of inspiration, can it be fairly maintained, in face of the facts of history, that the work of interpreting scriptural teaching regarding these mysteries and several other points of doctrine that have been identified with the substance of historical Christianity is so easy as to do away with the need of a living voice to which, as to the voice of Christ Himself, all are bound to submit.”

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm#II
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  80. One may not appeal to the inspired authority of the Scriptures, since for the fact of their inspiration the authority of the Church must be invoked, and unless she be infallible in deciding this one would be free to question the inspiration of any of the New Testament writings.

    Renee,

    This is precisely the presuppositional difference between Protestants and Catholics: the former hold that scriptura creates ecclesia, the latter that ecclesia creates scriptura. Depending on where one starts will decide where one ends. It really is that simple.
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  81. This is precisely the presuppositional difference between Protestants and Catholics: the former hold that scriptura creates ecclesia, the latter that ecclesia creates scriptura. Depending on where one starts will decide where one ends. It really is that simple.

    I really don't think it's that simple at all, Zrim. For example, I don't believe that "scripture creates the church," since the church was in existence and was growing long before the first NT letter was written, let alone the whole canon written and collected and recognized as such.

    The real question is, What was the normative authority during apostolic times (a view which should be reflected in the NT)? And once the apostles were out of the picture, did the norm change or stay the same? And how do we know?
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  82. Andrew:

    http://mliccione.blogspot.com/2010/06/bad-arguments-against-magisterium-part.html
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  83. I really don't think it's that simple at all, Zrim. For example, I don't believe that "scripture creates the church," since the church was in existence and was growing long before the first NT letter was written, let alone the whole canon written and collected and recognized as such.

    The real question is, What was the normative authority during apostolic times (a view which should be reflected in the NT)? And once the apostles were out of the picture, did the norm change or stay the same? And how do we know?



    I’m not sure I follow. It seems like standard issue Reformation theology to say that the Word creates the church instead of the church creating the Word. I understand that the church has eternally existed, but her existence comes by way of the spoken Word. As he spoke the created world into existence, so he spoke the redeemed church.

    As to the real question(s), then, that was my point about how Protestant presuppositions seem to differ from Catholic ones. Similar to how there were competing construals of justification during apostolic times, it’s hard for me to believe that scriptura presuppositions and ecclesia presuppositions didn’t also co-exist just as they do today. If we say that scriptura is the norm instead of ecclesia then Paul’s teaching is the norm, apostles living or dead (Gal. 1:8-9; it’s interesting how ecclesia chooses Peter and scriptura Paul). Just seems like your questions sort of answer themselves if we, following Paul, presuppose scriptura.
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  84. Andrew McCallumJun 2, 2010 03:08 PM
    Without infallibility there could be no finality regarding any one of the great truths which have been identified historically with the very essence of Christianity; and it is only with those who believe in historical Christianity that the question need be discussed

    Hello Renee,

    The problem here is that there is no finality with infallibility either. This is what I've tried to get across to Mike and Bryan. If an Orthodox theologian would show up and start debating with us on our understanding of these great truths at Nicea, Chalcedon, etc he would tell us that we had misconstrued the meaning of these councils. This has happened many times on sites I have been on. We have these "infallible" proclamations, but now the debates start as to the interpretation of these documents. So if the RCC makes fallible interpretations of these "infallible" documents then you are back to exactly the same spot as the Reformed theologians who make fallible interpretations of the infallible Scriptures. The RCC has not solved anything by claiming infallibility for her de fide pronouncements, but rather just backed the problem up one step.

    I also brought up the example to Mike of his attempt at harmonizing Vatican II with documents such as Cantate Domino that, on the face of it, directly contradict Vatican II concerning statements about those outside the Church obtaining salvation. I'm not trying to rehash his argument here, only to point out the fact that Vatican II and Cantate Domino are in need of interpretation to understand such "infallible" pronouncements. And when the Catholics interpret them it brings up exactly the same question to as we get - what is the status of fallible interpretations of infallible documents? Are such interpretations just "opinions" to use Mike term?

    Do you see the problem?
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  85. Andrew:

    In my previous comment, I gave you the link to my blog where I discuss these matters. As this combox approaches the century mark, I don't think the readers of this blog are likely to benefit from your continuing to rehash here a debate that you've rehashed with Bryan and me so often elsewhere. If you remain interested in discussing this, please do so in the combox to the post I referred you too.
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  86. Zrim,

    I’m not sure I follow. It seems like standard issue Reformation theology to say that the Word creates the church instead of the church creating the Word. I understand that the church has eternally existed, but her existence comes by way of the spoken Word. As he spoke the created world into existence, so he spoke the redeemed church.

    You’re equivocating here, speaking in your last comment about “Scripture” and now switching to “the Word.”

    I actually think both sides are closer to one another than it often appears. From what I can tell, we all agree that “the Word creates the church” if, of course, we understand “Word” to be Jesus. He created the church when he breathed the Spirit on the apostles, and then the church began to grow as they spoke the message beginning in Acts 2. I don’t think anyone disagrees about this.

    We also all agree that, during apostolic times, there was this thing called “the traditions that were handed down” that existed both in written and oral form. None of this is controversial. Where the controversy comes in is when the question is asked, “After the apostles died, did oral tradition cease to be co-normative along with the written tradition, or did written tradition (Scripture) make oral tradition unnecessary?” We affirm the latter, Catholics affirm the former. But none of this has anything to do with whether Scripture creates the church, in my view. It goes Jesus  church  apostolic preaching/Scripture  church growth.

    As to the real question(s), then, that was my point about how Protestant presuppositions seem to differ from Catholic ones. Similar to how there were competing construals of justification during apostolic times, it’s hard for me to believe that scriptura presuppositions and ecclesia presuppositions didn’t also co-exist just as they do today. If we say that scriptura is the norm instead of ecclesia then Paul’s teaching is the norm, apostles living or dead (Gal. 1:8-9; it’s interesting how ecclesia chooses Peter and scriptura Paul). Just seems like your questions sort of answer themselves if we, following Paul, presuppose scriptura.

    I just don’t think it’s that easy and clear-cut. For example, I don’t want to pit scripture against church the way you are doing, the necessary ramification of which is that I need to understand the gospel completely independently from the ministry of the church. I mean, isn’t the church the place where the gospel is preached? To say that “scripture is the norm instead of ecclesia” is to fall right into the Catholic’s trap and basically admit that we’re Solo Scripturists.

    Plus, I don’t want to follow Paul and not Peter (it was the former who called the visible church the “pillar and ground of the truth,” after all).

    Also, you’re assuming that those who make the church normative (1) simply disbelieve Paul, and (2) have no biblical argument for—indeed to concern to have a biblical argument for—their denial of sola fide.

    Now, I don’t buy their biblical arguments, but I will at least admit that they have them. But to simply say that “everyone knows that those who believe the Bible are Protestants and those who believe the church are Catholics” is a gross oversimplification, in my opinion.
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  87. JJS:

    I agree with the way you characterize the disagreement when you write:

    Where the controversy comes in is when the question is asked, “After the apostles died, did oral tradition cease to be co-normative along with the written tradition, or did written tradition (Scripture) make oral tradition unnecessary?” We affirm the latter, Catholics affirm the former. But none of this has anything to do with whether Scripture creates the church...

    This is a helpful way to frame the issue, for it poses a clear question, one whose very clarity allows one to know what one is asking about when one asks what what it would take to settle the question. Whichever way that might be, it would have to be de fide, not just the opinion of some Christians as opposed to others.

    Best,
    Mike
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  88. Andrew McCallumJun 2, 2010 05:21 PM
    In my previous comment, I gave you the link to my blog where I discuss these matters. As this combox approaches the century mark, I don't think the readers of this blog are likely to benefit from your continuing to rehash here a debate that you've rehashed with Bryan and me so often elsewhere. If you remain interested in discussing this, please do so in the combox to the post I referred you too.

    Mike - "....your continuing to rehash? I hope you mean our continuing to rehash. But, yes, I may do that. Although since someone just told us that de fide pronouncements bring finality I'm guessing that not everyone has comprehended, and my examples are apropos.

    Thanks....
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  89. JJS,

    I can see how it looks like it, but I’m not sure that painting in admittedly broad strokes is the same as “pitting scripture against the church” or “sacrificing Peter for Paul.” Nor is it for a moment to suggest those who make the church normative “disbelieve Paul and have no biblical argument against sola fide.” I think you’re over-reading my point, which is about priorities and presuppositions. What I’m saying is that when scripture is made normative, as in Protestantism, the church then logically and necessarily becomes defined and located (not sacrificed). What and where is the church? Where the Word/gospel is preached. And when the church is made normative, as in Catholicism, the Word/gospel then logically and necessarily becomes defined (not ignored). What is the gospel? It’s whatever the church says it is, which has the potential to go well if it aligns with scripture, but, well, you know. So in Protestantism first the Word/gospel, then the church. In Catholicism, first the church, then the Word/gospel. So I’m not saying in Protestantism “scripture is the norm instead of ecclesia,” I’m saying scripture norms ecclesia. The former, as you rightly point out, is Radicalism.

    Yes, I quite agree to say that “everyone knows that those who believe the Bible are Protestants and those who believe the church are Catholics” is a gross oversimplification. Catholics also believe greatly in the import of grace, faith and the person and work of Christ. I’m not sure that to simplify things is to be simplistic, unless to say, for example, that the gospel is succinctly defined as “God in Jesus reconciling himself to sinners,” which Catholics also believe.

    And I’m not sure that using “Scripture” synonymously with “the Word” is the same as equivocating. Do you understand those two terms to have different meanings?

    (FWIW, seems like if you really thought my intent was to convey something as non-high church Calvinist as we “understand the gospel completely independently from the ministry of the church” you’d have given more benefit of the doubt here. Maybe you missed my lauding of Robinson’s The Church of God: An Essential Element of the Gospel?

    http://confessionalouthouse.wordpress.com/2009/07/28/more-from-robinson-on-the-church/)
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  90. Zrim:

    And when the church is made normative, as in Catholicism, the Word/gospel then logically and necessarily becomes defined (not ignored). What is the gospel? It’s whatever the church says it is, which has the potential to go well if it aligns with scripture, but, well, you know.

    I deal with that objection in this post. It might interest you.


    Best,
    Mike
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  91. Jason,

    An interesting point about the Protestant use of the tu quoque in this context is found in Adrian Fortescue's "The Early Papacy--To the Synod of Chalcedon in 451." Fortescue was a British Catholic apologist writing at the turn of the century, attempting to prove that the papacy is an ancient institution. In his first chapter of the book, he states that not only is appealing to the Bible alone a wrong use of private judgment, but appealing to the Bible and antiquity is equally a misuse of private judgment. ("If a man cannot forge his own religion from the sixty-six books of the Bible, he certainly cannot do it from sixty-six books of the Bible and a hundred volumes of the church fathers," to paraphrase what he says there) In fact, he comes seemingly close to a Van Tillian view of presupposition in looking at church history, because he views a presupposition of the living authority of the Church of Rome as being necessary to understand the Bible and church history. Here's Fortescue:

    "All we suppose, before we come to the Church, is that our Lord Jesus Christ was a Man sent by God and Whom we must follow if we wish to serve God in the proper way; that He founded one visible Church, to which His followers should belong; that this Church is, as a matter of historic fact, the communion of Rome (not, however, supposing anything about the papacy, but supposing only visible unity and historic continuity). This much must be presupposed and therefore does not rest on the authority of the Church. All else does." (p. 26-27)

    So perhaps some support for the Protestant tu quoque is found in Fortescue's writing. I think he may be exaggerating when he says that appealing to history is as subjective as appealing to the Bible, but there is certainly some subjectivity involved. This would support the Protestant contention that there is no principled difference between a Protestant's and Catholic's initial use of private judgment.

    Just curious, what did you mean when you said that "plenty of scholars think apostolic succession is a myth?" I assume you were referring to the thing itself and not to its support in the church fathers?

    Pax Christi,

    Spencer
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  92. Spencer:

    http://mliccione.blogspot.com/2010/06/bad-arguments-against-magisterium-part.html


    Best,
    Mike
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