7/8/10

Looking for a Few Gay Men

Continuing my reflections on the PCA’s General Assembly, I’d now like to turn my attention to something that significantly bothered me at the time, and bothers me still. No, it’s not the Strategic Plan (though I hope to write on that as well), it’s this whole thing with the gays. You know, the ones in the military.

First let me bring you up to speed....

The motion on the floor of the Assembly was to petition the government not to repeal the military’s “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” policy with respect to homosexuals in the armed forces (which it is apparently considering doing). The Westminster Confession of Faith declares:

Synods and councils are to handle, or conclude nothing, but that which is ecclesiastical: and are not to intermeddle with civil affairs which concern the commonwealth, unless by way of humble petition in cases extraordinary; or, by way of advice, for satisfaction of conscience, if they be thereunto required by the civil magistrate (xxxi.4).
It was my intention, therefore, to vote against the motion as a matter of principle, since I don’t think the military’s policies are any of our business as officers in Christ’s church (any more than our ecclesiastical practices are any of theirs). But as unprecedented as it may be, this is actually one of those rare cases in which the Department of Defense actually asked the PCA its opinion of the matter (who, us irrelevant?).

All that to say, now I actually had to pay attention to the floor debate.

Of course, there wasn’t much by way of “debate” since no one rose to speak against the motion. What really got under my skin, though, was the attitude displayed by some of those who defended the Don’t Ask Don’t Tell policy (DADT). If I were a betting man, I’d wager that a good 95% of the commissioners in the room took it as a given that the military is a good and godly thing, and that it would take something as insidious and degenerate as homosexuality to tarnish its pristine reputation. One minister virtually insisted that DADT was necessary in order for the armed forces to retain their status as a holy institution akin to work and marriage before the Fall (I’m exaggerating, but only just).

This kind of rhetoric may be fine when everyone agrees on how holy the army is, but for others who are doubtful concerning the motives of those whose financial self-interests are furthered by ceaseless war, well, hearing that keeping the gays quiet will safeguard the honor of the military is a bit bemusing, if not positively ironic.

My point is not to cast aspersion on anyone (least of all soldiers), but simply to say that if homosexuality presents difficulties for the military, then it presents difficulties everywhere else, too. And conversely, to whatever degree the honor of the United States’ armed forces is compromised by gays joining up, to the same degree is Gold’s Gym desecrated when homosexuals work out there.

But why not turn the entire question on its head?

I wonder what would have happened if I had stood up on the floor of General Assembly and argued that gays enlisting in the military would dishonor gays more than it would the military?

Please don’t misunderstand me, this is not my position. I do have a reason for bringing it up, however, which is to challenge the idea—so prominent and even unquestioned in the American church—that the only thing worthy of suspicion concerning U.S. foreign policy is that the men who risk their lives to implement it might be attracted to other men.

In other words, if there were no such thing as homosexuality, would the United States of America really be any more holy than it currently is?

36 comments:

  1. Jason,

    It was good to meet you at GA. I would like to say one thing about this. We were told that the government did want our input/opinion on the matter. That is the only reason I voted for it.

    I do not think our military is holy or blameless in any way, but if it may help the chaplains then I was on board. After all it is only a letter and it was asked for and thus in line with WCF 31.4.

    Another thing that struck me was many who commented at GA when they were basically saying, "What are we going to do if we can't preach about sin, homosexuality, etc.?" I wanted to stand up and say, "Who will you follow God or man?" But I didn't...

    :)

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  2. I was reading a book on Islam and holy war the other day, and was interested to see that during the Iran/Iraq War, their respective countries had similar concerns when they went to war. The men who went into battle had certain moral standards that they had to match up to, and there could be no women in the battle, because for them, all war is holy war.

    Not to say that just because it is the Muslim view of war, it shouldn't be our view. But it's striking to see the similarities. Personally, I think that your quoting of section 31.4 should have been sufficient grounds for striking down the motion.

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  3. Maybe some of the Military brass aren't willing to scrap all of their investments in viable "gaydar" by repealing DADT. In realize that they asked the PCA for input, but was it prudent to offer an official position here?

    I can also see value for our chaplains if DADT were repealed: when our chaplains deal with servicemen who struggle with this sin, they will be able to do so with more openness and candor, than now under DADT where mandated silence reduces any dealings with this struggle to mere vaguery. Homosexuality is a reality in the military as it is in all walks of life, and openness certainly might cause some issues for the military, but as far as the chaplaincy is concerned, it might enable them to do their jobs more effectively.

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  4. Jed's question is mine: I know it's the prevailing opinion that there is no such thing as a bad question, but I disagree (which is to say the military asked a bad one, Jed asks a good one). Isn't the church answering the military's question on its own assumptions sort of like a school principal answering a cop's question on what law enforcement should do about other cops who cross the thin blue line, instead of looking around just going, "Um, huh?" But, yeah, funny how nobody asked for input over shock and awe.

    More importantly though, and speaking of going "out on a limb," is this pic pre- or post-seal attack? That hand looks fake, so I'm thinking post-, but I can't be sure.

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  5. Andrew,

    Another thing that struck me was many who commented at GA when they were basically saying, "What are we going to do if we can't preach about sin, homosexuality, etc.?" I wanted to stand up and say, "Who will you follow God or man?" But I didn't...

    I was thinking the same thing. When one guy said, "We won't be able to preach the gospel anymore!", I leaned over to my friend next to me and said, "Of course he will, but now it may cost him something."

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  6. Adam,

    I was reading a book on Islam and holy war the other day, and was interested to see that during the Iran/Iraq War, their respective countries had similar concerns when they went to war. The men who went into battle had certain moral standards that they had to match up to, and there could be no women in the battle, because for them, all war is holy war.

    That is a great point. The vibe I get from almost all American conservative Christians is exactly the same, that all war is holy war. I can't figure out why people think that way--would it be different if the party calling for war was not also condemning abortion?

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  7. Jed/Zrim,

    The argument by those supporting the motion was that chaplaincy as we now know it would cease, since they would be given orders to perform gay weddings and offer couselling to engaged men, and all that. Plus, they would be ordered not to preach that homosexuality is a sin.

    All that to say that it sounds to me like the repeal of DADT would have harmful effects on the military (at least if we grant that having chaplains is a good thing).

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  8. Well then, that clears up some of my misconceptions, and adds some complexity to the debate! I guess I have to re-think my position on this a bit...

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  9. Or wouldn't it be something if the military was as flummoxed by the presence of PCA chaplains and soldiers, as by the presence of gays in their midst. "These guys pray for the enemy!" "These preachers talk about just war like it should be done!" "They are killing morale!"

    Maybe Hauerwas was on to something...
    http://tinyurl.com/2beabcw

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  10. I suppose whatever else it does, it does seem to force some thought on chaplaincy, etc. I wonder if chaplaincy represents the very idea that war is holy (instead of common), as in priests giving last rites to William Wallace’s men on the battlefield.

    ...would it be different if the party calling for war was not also condemning abortion?

    This seems to hinge on the idea that ex vitro life is somehow different from in vitro life. I can't say that I follow it, but for some reason the former is more dispensible than the latter. For my part, it seems like no life is dispensible but at the same time no life has a special, absolute right to be protected that another doesn't.

    (Hey, instead of Buster what about Tobias in his never nudes? You know, the latency of DADT and all that?)

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  11. Correct me if I am wrong here, but it seems that the PCA simply responded to the military with a blanket endorsement of DADT. If this is the case, they may have overstepped their role inasmuch as the policy only transects PCA interests where chaplains are concerned. If they were to offer a more nuanced reply to the military brass which clarified that upholding or repealing DADT as a military policy lies outside of the denomination's concerns except where it affects PCA chaplains. If repealing DADT adversely affects PCA chaplains freedom to perform ministry duties within the constraints of their ordaination vows (cf. http://www.pca-mna.org/chaplainministries/ ), then the denomination should make recommendation that any policy change upholds the freedoms the chaplains currently maintain in performing ministry duties.

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  12. Does anyone but me have a problem with the whole notion of Chaplains?

    They are in a military chain of command under the UCMJ and wear the uniform and flag of the nation they represent, associating themselves with the policies of that nation.

    When I was in the forces in Europe, I remember the head chaplain for the branch I was in was some woman. Isn't that problematic?

    There are also security issues that for example if a soldier comes and tells you something...there are certain legal issues involved regarding military law. The whole thing just strikes me as...kind of dirty.

    I was converted while was in Europe, and within months I was so convicted over the mission, the whole lifestyle and tone...I wanted out and made sure I got out as soon as I could.

    It is a horrible environment for Christians.It was hands down the most hostile environment I've ever had to be in...as a Christian.

    We had a terrible time finding a church. The chaplains were PCUSA and UM and were not Christians. We spent a lot of time talking to them and when my friend pointed out to the one that he never talked about the person and work of Christ...he sat back and said, "I remember them talking about that..."

    It was pretty bad. But I don't think the answer would be to get a Reformed guy in there. Honestly, if I was chaplain, I could not in good conscience participate in the worship services. There is so much going on.....

    I had 43 men and women in my unit...at least 2 guys were known to be gay...everybody new it. The NCO's even joked about it at meetings in front of everybody. And there were a couple of other guys that everybody was pretty sure.

    No one cared. Now mind you, that wasn't a combat unit.

    But in the end....I couldn't care less what the military does about gays. I would much rather they quit killing people in other countries.

    I like Horton's bank teller story which some of you may have heard before.

    It was back during the early Clinton days and Don't Ask Don't Tell was the hot topic. He was depositing money for...what is it he's with CURE? And the teller who was obviously homosexual asked him something like,

    "I see you're a Christian organization, what is your stance on the issue of Don't ask, Don't tell?

    Horton replied, "We don't have a position on military matters. We're trying to reform the church."

    "But don't you think it's an abomination?"

    "Yes," but then he smiled or something and said, "But we can be neighbours...."

    I probably botched that, but you see my point. He was then able to talk to the guy and I've always thought that's the right attitude to have toward those people. I think the Falwell's and Robertson's have done a terrible thing. It's one thing to be persecuted for righteousness...it's another to be hated because you're an obnoxious person.

    Two things and I'll go....

    1. If all war is indeed a Sacral undertaking, then our participation would be idolatrous and we should have nothing to do with it. God hasn't commanded it...it cannot be holy. We have to understand it in common grace terms...

    2. What if the PCA had replied to the military....What have we to do with you? But I guess since the PCA has chaplains...I guess they are like it or not, tied in with the military. That's kind of troubling to me.

    Great article...good comments.

    John A.

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  13. Zrim,

    This seems to hinge on the idea that ex vitro life is somehow different from in vitro life. I can't say that I follow it, but for some reason the former is more dispensible than the latter. For my part, it seems like no life is dispensible but at the same time no life has a special, absolute right to be protected that another doesn't.

    I think we're on the same page here. My point was that the reason so many conservative Christians are pro-war could be that the party that's anti-abortion is pro-war. And since life in the womb is the highest order of life, etc, etc. You get the point.

    (Hey, instead of Buster what about Tobias in his never nudes? You know, the latency of DADT and all that?)

    Nah, it had to be a shot of Buster on his way to "army." And I'm pretty sure that's his real hand. The "loose-seal" came later, followed by the prosthetic ("I'll just run this through again on 'pots and pans.'").

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  14. John,

    I am conflicted on chaplaincy, to be honest. I know nothing about it, but I guess I think that if (and this may be a big "if") all that's going on is a man ministering the Word to soldiers who can't attend a conventional chuch, then it's hard to be against that. But if the rhetoric I often hear is any indication, there may be more to it than that, something akin to a divine sanctioning of whatever our latest war happens to be (hard to keep 'em all straight). And if that's the case, then I find it troubling to say the least.

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  15. I think we're on the same page here. My point was that the reason so many conservative Christians are pro-war could be that the party that's anti-abortion is pro-war. And since life in the womb is the highest order of life, etc, etc. You get the point.

    JJS,

    Agreed. Politically conservative Christians seem way more driven by the politics of sex than war, but since they have to take the latter with the former then comes all the stuff about just-war being the most virtuous form of war, etc., etc.

    (But just a qualification, though, I think there’s a difference between anti-abortion and pro-life: I’d rather frame the discussion in terms of person X not having the right to take the life at will or whim of person Y, not that person Y has some sort of special right to life. Pro-lifery tends to foster all sorts of romantic ideas about some lives, not least is that some of us are extra-special creatures.)

    I like Horton's bank teller story which some of you may have heard before.

    John,

    That’s the anecdote from the end of “Beyond Culture Wars.” If I recall, his point was that one gets a better hearing on his potentially divisive views if he gives the other guy the right to exist. That’s an underappreciated point. But my gays tend to have way more tolerance for my view that homosexuality is an immoral form of sexual expression when I’m not joining the social, cultural or political attempts to marginalize them.

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  16. Jason,

    You wrote: "I am conflicted on chaplaincy, to be honest. I know nothing about it..."

    I think you should look into their work more deeply before writing so critically about the struggles they face. Our chaplains do very hard work in circumstances from which many of us might retreat.

    Now then, I am 100% in agreement with you that defending DODT is nonsense. Surely many who read your blog are like me old enough to recall the bitter opposition to DODT, a Clinton era scam, that arose when it was foisted on the military to begin with. And now the GA wants to endorse it as a safeguard for pastoral care? Irony abounds.

    Having served on the Overtures Committee this year, and deeply respecting the views of men like Richard Phillips and Ron Gleason (to name but two), it is my view that the PCA had to speak to this issue precisely because we were asked to do so, and that we take seriously the views of our fellow TEs who serve in the military, or have done so.

    As for the actual care offered by the chaplains, let me be on record that saying merely that 'its hard to be against it' is an insufficient level of support for the men who so serve. Their service is not tied to an endorsement of American militarism, but to the proper ministry of word and sacrament, not only to soldiers but to their families as well, sometimes in the most horrible of conditions and tragic of circumstances. Whatever your views on US policy, and however weak you may find the presentation by some who spoke at GA - and that was surely not confined to this issue! - we can stand with our fellow ministers who are chaplains and wash their feet as they seek to exercise pastoral care in very unusual and trying circumstances.

    DC

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  17. People like Phillips baffle me. I'm ashamed to have worn the uniform and to have participated even on the logistice end in the operations we were involved in. It was murder. And when I really dug in and studied the geopolitics and you see what's really happening, it just makes you sick.

    I wanted out and then have made it a point to warn people about it, to warn those 18 year olds about the issue. Don't do it.

    But then how can I contend with ordained men proudly displaying their credentials in their bio pieces and talking it up from the pulpit?

    I'm not attacking Phillips. I don't know the man. I don't agree with him on much of anything, especially this issue, so I can't help it...his face always pops in my mind when this arises...

    The policy switch IS ironic...doesn't that show yet again, the church just gets duped when it plays with the government? Now we're begging them to keep DADT! If we could travel back in time to 1993, no one would believe us!

    Service? I just can't bring myself to use that word. When I was unloading bombs and missiles that were shuttled over to an F-16 and dropped on Serbs an hour later...how was I serving the U.S. people or Constitution?

    How were soldiers in the Gulf War 'serving'? It's a big chess game. I fail to see how anyone is 'serving' in Iraq or Afghanistan.

    I can see how soldiers are doing harm (a dis-service) to the perception of Americans....a disservice to the cause of the gospel overseas, because sadly it is tied in with perceptions of America.

    I just don't understand this kind of thinking. We're citizens of the Kingdom. Just because there is a 'sphere' in our society doesn't mean we have to go and get involved it. Not everything belongs to the Realm even if it is under His reign.

    I'll be quiet now before I upset anyone too much. It's not my intention.I realize that's just not how most people are think. It really bothers me, but I don't know what to do about it. Just think about it.

    Peace,

    John A.

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  18. Proto,

    I'll call you John if you prefer, but Proto is a far cooler gloss. Anyone who takes serious issue with your position simply misunderstands Christian liberty. I tend to think that Christians serving in geopolitical wars is a very complex issue, however one can "serve" conscientiously, as validly as one who chooses not to.

    The only area that I would direct my disagreement is your perception that America is doing a disservice to the gospel by engaging in war. Since when were they serving the gospel? The fact is that the Muslim world is likely not going to be impacted by N. American and Western European Xians as effectively as say Asian believers, and believers from other areas in the world. Christ's going to build his church and the gates of hell, and the US military won't stand against it.

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  19. jedpachall,

    Thanks.I understand your point. The key is, it's complex. You can't say it's never okay, but at least you and I would probably agree....it's not always okay.

    Something American Christians say, but don't seen to really mean.

    No you're right the military can't stop the gospel. What I mean is in terms of a right understanding of Common Grace....I wasn't helping America's Constitution or her people to be more free......

    And, as far as the gospel....because of Christo-American Theology....whether we like it or not, we're perceived as a Christian nation and that plays out geo-politically. The answer is to get people to quit saying we're a Christian nation.

    I think you would agree???? Maybe I wasn't clear.

    Thanks for understanding Christian liberty, a lost art. (smile)

    I was told I wasn't a Christian recently because I said it was okay to listen to "Take me home country roads" on the radio.

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  20. Proto,

    Yikes!!! I'd hate to have your accuser browse my iPod, my liberties there could cause him/her to gather up the kindling and find the nearest stake to burn me at.

    I wish I could disagree with your assessment of our recent military endeavors, but sadly, instead of defending our constitution we've taken it upon ourselves to be an international police force.

    The perception of Christian America is, in my opinion an unfortunate one. I am not sure we are as much to blame for this, as are the foreign (Muslim) governments that paint us that way for the sake of their own rhetoric. Any honest, well informed Muslim knows that this simply isn't the case. Maybe we could be clearer in our geopolitical rhetoric, but I am at a loss as to how America would be able to actually get this across to the Muslim world, many of whom seem to want to use this perception to legitimize the violence and terror. All to say, yeah, I do agree this is the standing perception, but I am not so sure how much America is currently to blame for the misconception.

    The brunt of missionaries who are taking the brunt of violent persecution aren't American, or even western. If I recall, the majority of martyred missionaries in Afghanistan especially are Koreans. Nonetheless, there are pockets of substantial growth for the church even in the face of brutal persecution. This happens in spite of Muslim misconceptions of Christian America.

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  21. jedpaschall,

    Sounds like we need to try and make friends with Muslims, especially those who are in the United States.

    Even if they're not converted, they'll tell friends and family back in their countries of origin...not all Americans are like that.

    Whenever I've talked with any they seem quite surprised to find serious and devout Christians that don't go along with all the Christian Right agenda, including foreign policy.

    I go on Al Jazeera sometimes and interact a bit. If anything I just try and explain, we're not all Christian Zionists.....

    Yeah, my ipod goes a little beyond John Denver too.

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  22. So bring me up to speed on what actually happened;

    (a) how exactly did the DoD actually ask the PCA what it thought about DODT?

    (b) what was the outcome? I assume they issued a position statement, is it online yet?

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  23. Jed and Proto,

    Not only do I agree with you about gays in the military ... you are American Christians having a reasonable discussion about Islam ...

    As a 'reformed' credo baptist living in the UK surrounded by Muslims, I occasionally venture onto 'US Reformed Christian' blogs to seek to correct some of the many misconceptions put out there ... by people who have never met a muslim, let alone interact with them every day .. it always ends in tears

    keep on keeping on ....

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  24. Hey thanks for the encouraging word.

    I always enjoyed fellowshipping with some of the Reformed Baptists in the UK...mostly out in Cams and Suffolk.

    I have a great fondness for the remnant in the UK.

    John A.
    Proto

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  25. Anon,

    It is a bit frustrating to see many of the common misconceptions we Americans (Reformed or not) have about Muslims. Some of this is owed to the radicalism that pervades some corners of Islam, but a lot of it is due to plain ignorance. My Muslim friends are often the easiest to seriously engage with the gospel because unlike so many agnostics they deal with and respects categories of faith and belief. I have observed with great pleasure how quickly their commitment to the gospel shames me, when I have seen a couple of them come to faith in Jesus. They are a fascinating people with a fascinating history and culture.

    As to gays in the military... it is all part of this 2k discussion for the place of opposing life & belief systems in the society at large, as well as our own. I find the discussion to be one of the most important ones we as Christians face in this generation. I would be interested to see how this conversation shapes up over the pond.

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  26. I write to register a contrarian point of view. I could not disagree more strongly with most of the views represented here. My own views are more closely aligned with those of Pastor Rick Phillips and Dr. Kim Riddlebarger, 2K but not politically leftist. I'm proud to have warn the uniform of my country, believe war can be a moral necessity, and anti-statist. The harsh comments made here disparaging the U.S. military and this nation fill me with moral revulsion. I've lost good friends and relatives in battle, and I know they were proud to have served and sacrificed.

    The one positive take away from this series of very unfortunate rants is a revelation, a dropping of the mask. Some of the posters here elsewhere have written as 2k advocates, but have articulated a version of 2k that is a distortion and aberation from the maintream 2k view that is represented by, e.g., DVD and KR. I have wondered what drove this distortion. Plainly it is a hard leftist political ideology and anti-American animus that appears to drive much of the more exteme 2K views articulated by some of these posters. I had suspected that it was a liberal to leftist political philosophy that underlay and caused the distortion of 2k. The refreshing candor represented in these posts is illuminating and revealing.

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  27. CvanDyke,

    I don't think it is fair of you to label people "leftists" and "anti-Americans" who engage in "unfortunate rants" simply because they take a different view than you do on American wars.

    I learned much of my 2K theology from VanDrunen when I was his student, and I consider myself to be in substantial agreement with him. The fact that you consider 2K theology "distorted" when the politics of the one espousing it are more left than yours demonstrates that you may not have the grasp on the two kingdoms that you think you do.

    The whole point of 2K theology is that our politics are kept separate from our theology. That doesn't mean we can't talk about politics, but it does mean that we don't use it as a test for orthodoxy, which you clearly are doing.

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  28. JS, I only wish that the politics of yourself and your disciples were kept separate from your 2K theology. I think these posts speak for themselves.

    I can attest that you share neither the politics nor the 2k understanding of DVD.

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  29. CVD,

    Another sub-point of 2K is that there are a wide variety of political viewpoints. You seem to know only two: leftist and rightist. But do you understand that there are righties who aren't as wild about militarism as you seem to be or who have much more conservative notions of patriotism? Do you understand that there such a thing as patriotism of affirmation and patriotism of dissent? (Why is it that those who espouse a patriotism of dissent are accused of being morally bankrupt or un-patriotic by the pariots of affirmation?) You might make a stop at a blog called "Front Porch Republic" which represents a much more conservative conservatism than your progressive conservatism.

    In the same way, there are also different kinds of 2Kers. Some do it well, others are sort of clunky and mediocre. I know you're familiar with OldLife, but your neo-con 2K seems at loggerheads with it's much more conservative and well done 2K.

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  30. Nationalism is just another form of idolatry.

    The Truth is never treason in Christ's Kingdom. It might me in the kingdoms of the world, but should never be among Christians.

    I am ashamed to have ever worn the uniform, and I tell everyone I can, everyone young man I can warn, I do.

    Good night if he thinks this was bad, he'd come unglued over things I say elsewhere.

    I stand by everything I've said without hesitation and unapologetically. Zrim put it right....it's not about left or right. They're both dead wrong.

    John A.

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  31. CVD,

    JS, I only wish that the politics of yourself and your disciples were kept separate from your 2K theology. I think these posts speak for themselves.

    The politics of myself have never even entered the discussion, because 2K theology is a-political. The fact that you insist on labeling the 2K views of anyone who disagrees with you as perverted only demonstrates that you don't understand the point of the two kingdoms in the first place.

    I can attest that you share neither the politics nor the 2k understanding of DVD.

    I never claimed to share the politics of DVD, since that issue is moot (a point you are consistently failing to appreciate).

    As far as his understanding of the two kingdoms, Dave taught me for three years, and we have spent hours discussing these topics. Your "attesting" that I do not share his views is, to put it politely, humorous.

    CVD, you seem to be coming here looking for a fight. I have no interest in fighting wth you, especially about politics.

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  32. CVD,

    If you wish to characterize my libertarian views as leftist, that's fine, you'd just be wrong because they are frankly opposed to leftist ideals. I certainly am not out to disparage your military service, or those who served alongside you. That, however doesn't preclude the necessity of sensible dialogue over current US military policy. I do disagree with much of our current military policy, but that doesn't mean I am either anti-military or anti-America.

    This does tie into a fundamental issue of Christian liberty though. We can disagree on politics, but our political affiliations should get checked at the door when we gather for worship on the Lord's Day, and we shouldn't disparage our brothers and sisters who conscientiously hold divergent political views.

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  33. CVD,
    I am a proud former military man also, and have 2 sons who are serving right now. As pro military as I am, I do have reservations about our military policies. When politicians with self-serving agendas override military commanders and their strategies for victory, I have a problem. When a mission is no longer defined we become a police force. My eldest son was a sitting duck at times as his unit guarded some bridge in the middle of Iraq after the offensive had been curtailed. I don't want to go on a political rant but we may be better served with the military defending our border. I have known a great many Christian men in the military and they have served this country in an honorable manner. But, for all the military does right, it is not perfect, and is a difficult place to have a family. I,for one, appreciate the difficult work of the chaplain. I also appreciate dialogue with those brothers who may disagree with my views.

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  34. Mr. Duncan, if you have found this post you are at the site and comment thread we discussed. In order to distribute it to your colleagues and board members, you simply need to attach it to an email as a link.

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  35. Great! Maybe some others can have an opportunity to think outside of the Constantinian box...........

    If you want to read some real humdingers go to www.proto-protestantism.blogspot.com

    You'll love what I say there about the American Church and nationalism.

    We can talk Constantinianism, Sacralism, Militarist Christianity, Fascism etc.....

    We can also talk about the Kingdom of Jesus Christ and what happens when people confuse it with a culture or a nation.......

    Sorry, Mr. Stellman, I couldn't resist. I hope that wasn't over the line. T

    These people have such moral indignation...and it never occurs to them someone else might for Biblical reasons.... feel the same way about them.

    John A.

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