I spent about six hours on Thursday with Peter Leithart, Rob Rayburn, and two other members of the Pacific Northwest Presbytery, the purpose of which was to seek to better understand Leithart’s views on topics such as baptism and justification, as well as to talk more broadly about the nature and usefulness of confessions within the life of the church. Plenty has already been said by way of debating the doctrinal issues surrounding the Federal Vision (so I'll not get into that here), but I think a conversation about confessions and catechisms is necessary, and it was this portion of our meeting that I found especially interesting.This will take some time to qualify and explain, but the position of someone like Rayburn is not that the Westminster Standards ought to be set aside or ignored, but rather that the way we treat them in the PCA inevitably (and lamentably) leads to their being set aside and ignored. When a candidate for ordination stands on the floor of presbytery and insists that he has no exceptions to the Confession or Catechisms, it often demonstrates just how little he has really engaged with them, and how unimportant they have become to us as ministers and to us as a church.
Rayburn plans to illustrate his position at an upcoming meeting of presbytery by submitting to the credentials committee a 20+-page document listing every single scruple he has with respect to the Westminster Standards. I know what you’re thinking: “How can any minister claim to be a Reformed churchman and yet take that many exceptions to our church’s teaching?” But before we become too dismissive, consider this statement:
The third commandment requires, that the name of God, his titles, attributes, ordinances, the Word, sacraments, prayer, oaths, vows, lots, his works, and whatsoever else there is whereby he makes himself known, be holily and reverently used in thought, meditation, word, and writing…. (WLC 112).
This covenant of grace is frequently set forth in Scripture by the name of a testament, in reference to the death of Jesus Christ the Testator, and to the everlasting inheritance, with all things belonging to it, therein bequeathed (WCF vii.4).The prooftext for this statement is Hebrews 9:15-18 which, in the King James Version, renders the Greek word diatheke as “testament.” Not only is this rendering disputed (I believe it should be rendered “covenant” as it is everywhere else in the New Testament), but it is also the only prooftext for something that is said to happen “frequently.”
One final statement:
It is the duty of Christians to marry only in the Lord. And therefore such as profess the true reformed religion should not marry with infidels, papists, or other idolaters: neither should such as are godly be unequally yoked, by marrying with such as are notoriously wicked in their life, or maintain damnable heresies (WCF xxiv.3).The unmistakable assumption here is that Catholics are not Christians. Now this is much stronger than the way we usually put it, which goes something like this: “Those who heartily embrace Rome’s teaching are not Christians, yet there are true believers within the Catholic Church.” Sure, WCF xxiv.3 is not as strong as calling the pope the antichrist (we graciously took that bit out), but it still equates Catholics with “infidels and other idolaters” to the point that no true believer can marry one.
Rayburn’s point in bringing up these kinds of statements from the Westminster Standards is to point out that hardly any ordained PCA minister actually believes them, and yet very few have taken an exception to them before their presbyteries. Does this not demonstrate how low our regard is for our church’s official teachings?
Setting aside the fact that Rayburn does not believe Leithart’s teachings to be in conflict with the Standards (a point about which we strongly disagree), I do think he makes an interesting point. Why should we have confessions or catechisms that contain loads of statements that we all agree are not intrinsic to the Reformed system of doctrine? Why include “in the space of six days” if it can be disagreed with? Why affirm that Paul wrote Hebrews if none of us really believes he did? Why say that the Bible frequently calls the covenant a testament if the claim is false on its face? Why forbid images of Jesus of Nazareth if virtually every children’s Bible or Sunday School curriculum violates this?
The Reformed churches need a new confession. I’ll go further, the Reformed churches need a new confession that can realistically be subscribed to strictly, one that is both shorter (achieved by trimming the unnecessary fat) and longer (addressing the myriad of questions that have arisen since the seventeenth century, such as Pentecostalism, Dispensationalism, and Open Theism). While I’m feeling bold, I’ll go further even still: the Reformed churches need a new confession that can be subscribed to by all of us, thus effectively putting an end to the need for the PCA, the OPC, the URC, and other Reformed denominations that have no good reason to remain separated from one another.
Of course, how this would work, who would compose it, and whom it would include and exclude are all separate but serious questions. But can we really question the need?

I just don't see any need for a 'new' confession. That is exactly what the FVers want so we can give up our attacks on them, and I only bring that up because of the men you have talked about here.
ReplyDeleteBesides, the problem that is addressed by Rayburn is not one of a bad confession where we need a new one, but one of honesty (9th commandment) and one of secularization (1st commandment). Of honesty: Did Rayburn reveal this to the presbytery when he was ordained? If not, then it is a problem with his honesty. As Elders none of us should be trying to find a new confession just so everyone can agree, this was already done in a more broad spectrum than Presbyterians. That's what the Westminster Standards are. Didn't we take a vow that said that we hold to the Standards? Or did we lie in this vow? So the response to this experience of Rayburn's isn't that we need a new confession, but we need to follow Christ more.
Of Secularization: We have gone away from Scripture, added things to it, etc. And so of course the Westminster Standards don't match up because we have interpreted Scripture based on our own traditions and man-made formulated doctrines. This is sad.
Another question: Why does anyone have to 'better understand Leithart's views'? Don't you know them well enough?
Why is the Confession being brought up in this question? Is it to make a way possible to allow Leithart to stay when he is contrary to the standards, especially on justification and baptism?
Andrew,
ReplyDeleteThat is exactly what the FVers want so we can give up our attacks on them, and I only bring that up because of the men you have talked about here.
I first heard the argument for a new confession from Scott Clark while I was his student, so your argument that this desire is connected with being a FV'er is false.
Did Rayburn reveal this to the presbytery when he was ordained? If not, then it is a problem with his honesty.
You're assuming the worst here. Did we not vow that if at any time we become aware of a discrepancy between our views and the confession that we make it known? It's not as if we have to have settled opinions about everything before we can be ordained, right?
We have gone away from Scripture, added things to it, etc. And so of course the Westminster Standards don't match up because we have interpreted Scripture based on our own traditions and man-made formulated doctrines. This is sad.
Isn't the WCF a "man-made" document which says itself that it can err? If not, then can I assume you've taken no exceptions to it, and that you think that the covenant of grace is frequently called a testament in the Bible?
Why does anyone have to 'better understand Leithart's views'? Don't you know them well enough?
Yes, I think I have a pretty good grasp on them. But one of the other presbyters thought this meeting would be a good chance to dialogue face to face, since most of our committee's work has been done via the written word. I think it was a profitable meeting all around, even though no one's opinions have changed.
Why is the Confession being brought up in this question? Is it to make a way possible to allow Leithart to stay when he is contrary to the standards, especially on justification and baptism?
No, of course the Standards will not be changed in order to accomodate anyone's views. In October it is very likely that a trial date will be set.
Ballsy of you to say, but I agree.
ReplyDeleteI am also starting to think the 3 forms of unity have the advantage over the westminster standards that they don't go far out into unnecessary detail, where a lot of the problematic items occur...the 10 commandments portions are excellent examples, IMO.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAs I recall, Dr. Scott made the same point in his book, "Recovering the Reformed Confessions," that there were numerous confessions written prior to the 19th century.
ReplyDeleteThe issue of rewriting the Confessions boils down to the questions of can and should?
- As Jason reminded us, the Confessions CAN be changed because they are not infallible documents. In fact, they have been modified before to change the language regarding the civil magistrates. So there is a precedent for modifying the Confessions to adapt to new understanding of Scripture.
- I think an argument could be made that the Confessions SHOULD be changed for the 21st century. In particular, I am thinking of the ongoing debate in the PCA regarding Strict vs. System Subscription, which has been the genesis of so many other disagreements. Those presbyteries that hold to System Subscription is effectively rewriting our Confessions, except it is being done at the level of individual presbyteries instead of the GA; that's problematic and strikes at the heart of our connectionism as a denomination.
Some of my fellow esteemed brothers in the PCA will argue that we would just be giving in to those who are not faithful to our Confessions. I would argue that the cat is out of the bag and that a significant minority, perhaps even a majority, already hold to System Subscription. So unless we are prepared to head for a split, reminiscent of the Old Side/New Side Split of 1741, which was largely over the issue of Subscription, we need to come to an agreement on how to proceed forward. Up to now, the principle options seem to be living with the tension or forcing everyone in the denomination to be Strict Subscriptionists. Perhaps a better answer would be to rewrite the Confessions formally at the level of the GA so that everyone can strictly subscribe to a confession that is applicable for today without compromising our Confession Reformed identity.
I agree. You look at the confessions of the Church, and they always made new confessions when heresies arose and clarification was necessary.
ReplyDeleteDo you think this is something NAPARC could oversee? I'm sure the # of commissioners from various denominations would be a hotly debated item, but could it be pulled off?
Yes, this seems to be what Clark argues for in Recovering the Reformed Confession. But regarding the idea that such a confession ought to be subscribed to strictly, I think misunderstands the original purpose of the Westminster Confession (and I quote from Letham's awesome book, The Westminster Assembly: Reading Its Theology in Historical Context):
ReplyDelete"Reformed theology was a relatively broad stream, and differences among those swimming in it were recognized and accepted" (p. 84).
Paraphrasing Letham, we should take note. That is, we should be mindful that subscription to the Confession as is currently understood in contemporary Presbyterianism is just that—contemporary (which produces, it seems to me, the [unnecessary] tension Rayburn speaks of in Jason's post). The Confession was not fashioned for a particular denomination within a societal context of church-state separation; rather, it was intended to unite the realm (England, Scotland and Ireland) and her church. As such, it's a lowest-common-denominator Reformed document with the specific purpose of uniting a bunch of different people, and thus various views on a host of subjects (e.g., covenant of works and hypothetical universal atonement) were tolerated. Now, it may be a non-sequitur to suggest that Reformed folk today ought to follow suit, but at least the burden of proof lies with the strict subscriptionist.
This doesn't mean, however, that there's no such thing as "outside the bounds of the Confession"; it just means that the berth is deep and wide.
Perhaps this is more indicative of our lack of understanding classic Reformed theology.
ReplyDeleteI certainly believe that the covenant of grace is frequently set forth in terms of testament. I think Gomarus was right when he asserted against Arminius that the covenant of grace was a testementary covenant and a covenantal testament. Not only that, I also believe that the word berith conveys the same idea at times (e.g. Is. 54:7-8), that of bequeathal. This has been argued at length by the classic Reformed theologians, and I have found that people are shockingly unaware of their explanations.
Second, why in the world would we say that a believer can marry a Catholic? They are idolaters, plain and simple. I would say that it is a sin for a believer to marry an open idolater.
I did not take any exception to these things because I do not have a problem with them. I studied them in light of Scripture, and I have come to the conclusion that they are correct.
In addition, our ordinations vows do not say that we must report any exception to the Standards but only those that are out of accord with any of the fundamentals of the system.
Jason,
ReplyDeleteYou said, "I first heard the argument for a new confession from Scott Clark while I was his student, so your argument that this desire is connected with being a FV'er is false."
Okay. Point taken.
You said, "You're assuming the worst here. Did we not vow that if at any time we become aware of a discrepancy between our views and the confession that we make it known? It's not as if we have to have settled opinions about everything before we can be ordained, right?"
Sorry, I wasn't assuming the worst, it really is a question and it was late last night and I should've qualified it with another question as well, "If his views have changed has he revealed these different views to his presbtyery, if not then this is an issue of honesty."
You said, "Isn't the WCF a "man-made" document which says itself that it can err? If not, then can I assume you've taken no exceptions to it, and that you think that the covenant of grace is frequently called a testament in the Bible?"
Of course it is a man-made document that can be edited and can err. But I also took a vow to uphold the Confession, I took no exceptions, and I believe it reflects the major doctrines of Scripture (as many in history have from different backgrounds). Therefore, if people are having a problem with it and want to change it, they are not interpreting it in its historical context, have been influenced by the culture, or there are parts of it that are wrong.
You said, "Yes, I think I have a pretty good grasp on them. But one of the other presbyters thought this meeting would be a good chance to dialogue face to face, since most of our committee's work has been done via the written word. I think it was a profitable meeting all around, even though no one's opinions have changed."
Sorry, I thought you guys had met before. I remember you saying that Leithart was a good guy and whatnot. I assumed you had met and discussed these things with him.
What's the point of Rayburn sending in this 20 page document? What is he trying to prove?
JJS,
ReplyDeleteYou said, "While I’m feeling bold, I’ll go further even still: the Reformed churches need a new confession that can be subscribed to by all of us, thus effectively putting an end to the need for the PCA, the OPC, the URC, and other Reformed denominations that have no good reason to remain separated from one another."
While I am sympathetic to your (and Dr. Clark's) argument for a new confession, I don't think it could attain this particular goal of uniting these several denominations. Since you seem to be describing organic unity, we would need a unified Book of Church Order to do that. As much as I would love to see these these similarly-minded denominations unified, I believe a commonly approved BCO may actually be tougher than agreement on a confession (I'm thinking about deaconesses, number of offices, ministerial credentials and membership, etc.)
It seems to me that much of the differences lie in polity rather than theology. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.
I find it troubling that ministers, et al, would find it necessary to take an exception on the WLC teaching on the 3rd commandment with regard to the Lord making Himself known via lots. Is it really true that we have this plethora of Reformed ministers (or at least ministers in the PCA) who deny this? Do they not realize the numerous biblical texts they would have to deny or object to or painfully qualify in order to do this? What do they do with passages like Proverbs 16:33; Isaiah 34:17; the division of the land under Joshua; the selection of Zacharias in Luke 1; or the selection of Matthias in Acts 1?
ReplyDeleteEddie,
ReplyDeleteDo you think this is something NAPARC could oversee? I'm sure the # of commissioners from various denominations would be a hotly debated item, but could it be pulled off?
I am doubtful that it could in fact be pulled off, but if it were, it may work better if a few NAPARC denoms like te OPC, URC, and PCA decide to move ahead with it and let other jump on board if they choose.
Chris,
ReplyDeleteThe Confession was not fashioned for a particular denomination within a societal context of church-state separation; rather, it was intended to unite the realm (England, Scotland and Ireland) and her church. As such, it's a lowest-common-denominator Reformed document with the specific purpose of uniting a bunch of different people, and thus various views on a host of subjects (e.g., covenant of works and hypothetical universal atonement) were tolerated.
While on the one hand there is no question that the WCF is a consensus document, I don't think it was written for the purpose of people divining a "system" within it as a kind of confession within a confession. The traditional ordination vow seems to say that we receive and adopt the WCF as itself the system taught in the Bible.
As for your examples, I don't think the Standards teaches two possible versions of the covenant of works. Sure, there can be differences of emphasis, but it seems to me that what FV'ers do is deny the plain teachings of the confession by saying there's not a qualitative and essential difference between the principles of inheritance in the covenants of works and grace.
While I don't really like the "lowest common denominator" idea, I do think we need a confession that is broader than the Westminster.
Yes, in the "ideal" world, a new Confession would be helpful. Not in the current climate, however. Our difficulties in cutting out the FV cancer from the PCA show how relatively uncommitted we are to the Confession we already have.
ReplyDeleteI don't know Rob Rayburn personally, but it seems that he's trying to put one over on you with the old "razzle-dazzle." You know how it goes: Deflect attention away from the Big Issue by distracting you with lesser matters. Don't fall for it.
Chris said of the WCF:
ReplyDelete"As such, it's a lowest-common-denominator Reformed document with the specific purpose of uniting a bunch of different people, and thus various views on a host of subjects (e.g., covenant of works and hypothetical universal atonement) were tolerated."
If that, and the rest of what you said in your comment is true, then it seems to me to make the opposite point. If the Confession is already broad and, so to speak, minimalist, reducing it further is clearly not living up to what we have already attained (Philippians 3:16). If it was meant to be broad in including as much as possible under its reformed umbrella, making it less detailed and more comprehensive would involve making it distinctively less Reformed.
"I don't know Rob Rayburn personally, but it seems that he's trying to put one over on you with the old "razzle-dazzle." You know how it goes: Deflect attention away from the Big Issue by distracting you with lesser matters. Don't fall for it."
ReplyDeleteThis is otherwise known as the Tu Quoque logical fallacy. It is a red herring and needs to be noted as such.
I thought most seminary students were at some point required to write their own confession?
ReplyDeleteSecond, why in the world would we say that a believer can marry a Catholic? They are idolaters, plain and simple. I would say that it is a sin for a believer to marry an open idolater.
ReplyDeleteWes, I wonder if the point here would be, not so much that we relax the language about Catholics in marital relation to the Reformed, but that if we are going to speak so pointedly about Catholics then maybe a new confession would take into account that domain of Christianity which descends from the Radical Reformation, AKA evangelicals. Arguably, evangelicalism has come to define Christianity in the west today the way Catholicism defined it at the time of the Reformation.
In other words, maybe, in the fantasy world of drafting new confessions, on this score we see the Catholic point but up the ante by naming evangelicals along with Catholics on the roster of what it means to be unequally yoked? If nothing else, maybe it would go a fair ways to dispelling the religious bigotry we seem to have against Catholics when we grandfather in Radicals, which seems to be the result of a less than stellar grasp of the historical case that the Protestant Reformation was a battle on two fronts and not just one.
Tim,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the technical reminder.
The following is from www.fallacyfiles.org:
"Tu Quoque is a very common fallacy in which one attempts to defend oneself or another from criticism by turning the critique back against the accuser. This is a classic Red Herring since whether the accuser is guilty of the same, or a similar, wrong is irrelevant to the truth of the original charge. However, as a diversionary tactic, Tu Quoque can be very effective, since the accuser is put on the defensive, and frequently feels compelled to defend against the accusation."
Frank,
ReplyDeleteJason did not post the entirety of the conversation here, but rather just pointed out one facet of it that he found interesting. To assume the worst of Dr. Rayburn here is a mistake, if not simply ill-informed.
Dr. Rayburn is no dissembler. He was my pastor for a number of years while I lived in Tacoma. He baptized three of my children. I have had dinner at his home on a number of occasions. He teaches the Word from the pulpit. He has a sound and supple mind. He is willing to turn things over and look at issues from as many sides as possible. He is not a reactionary, as many bloggers seem to be.
Frank,
ReplyDeletePS- I think what you did is called the fallacy of accent…
Jason,
ReplyDeleteThere are several comments above basically asking what Rayburn's motives might be in bringing up some of these more obscure aspects of the confessions. Chris has an admonishment about not assuming the worst of Dr. Rayburn and I understand this. But I'm still left wondering about why he wants to delve into some of these lesser details of the confessions in the context of your conversation with him.
I would agree with you that the confessions need updating as confessions always do from time to time. There are always new issues that need to be be addressed and anachronisms that really should be removed. But our issues with Rayburn's defense of Leithart's version of FV hardly fits into the category of the confessional obscurities that Rayburn raises. So what is Rayburn hoping to accomplish here?
The reason seems clear to me - it is solomonic. Divide the baby. Illustrate the difficulty of subscription by showing just how difficult it is to subscribe lock, stock, and barrel to an 18th century confessional document.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous John
I realize I owe some of you responses, which I hope to provide some time late Tuesday morning.
ReplyDeleteCheers,
JJS
I don't want to enter into the fray here, but, just to say: I'm an OPC member who agrees with the Confession on all the issues raised in this post, except maybe Pauline authorship of Hebrews, but one can easily take an exception to that. I don't have a pan-optic view of OP ministers, but most I do know are in agreement with the Confession's teaching on images of Christ, reverence for providence in casting lots, and the injunction against marrying Catholics.
ReplyDeleteI've read VanDrunen on the 2nd commandment in the OP magazine, and his view seems largely representative of our ministers. I think Wes White has it right when he says that the Bible does often refer to the covenant of grace as a testament. The Divines, I'd say, were aware of the number of times the word appeared. Isn't it reasonable to say they're thinking of meaning, teaching, systematic, organic expression? I've been warned many times against making arguments based on the proof texts included with the Standards, that the divines were pressured to include them and that they depend on the exegetical literature and theology of the time, not a prima facie reading of the verses. Additionally, I think WCF comes from a time when "Catholic" means someone who believes what Catholics believe, not just someone on the rolls of the RC church for the fun of it or for tradition's sake or whatever. If they believe Luther's doctrine of justification, are in the RC church, I doubt we can call them "Roman Catholics" in the same sense as the Divines mean. Something of the pellucidity of their language relative to ours seems to be the issue. Perhaps that one quality is the best argument for keeping the Standards. That and the fact that, beyond being faithful, they lead us in a certain sense. They bind the anglophone Reformed of 350 years (and more if you count their clear antecedents), span continents, and make our confession more than those churches whose basic commitment is expressed by a ten-page Word document their pastor(s) drew up five years ago.
My point concerning Dr. Rayburn's "20 pages of scruples" was, and remains, this: It's entirely beside the point, and at best only a distraction, as far as determining whether Federal Vision teachings strike at the fundamentals of the system of doctrine taught in the Standards.
ReplyDeleteI don't know if Dr. Rayburn uses the term "scruple" the same way as we TR types do. A scruple is generally taken to be a concern over wording or phraseology. An exception is a disagreement over the meaning. The principle has always been, "A scruple does not cancel the substance."
One may have a scruple, for example, over WCF XXI.8, that proper Sabbath observance requires "the whole time, in the public and private exercises of his worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy." One may wish a different word than "whole," or omission of the word entirely, yet embrace the Confession's view of the Sabbath in all essential respects.
This is what Presbyters do, after all: Examine the views of church officers to determine whether their scruples rise to the level of exceptions, and whether exceptions strike at the fundamentals of the system of doctrine.
And so we come full circle. The only relevant issue is whether the views of Leithart and other FV advocates are incompatible with the Reformed confessions. Let's focus on the issue on hand. Resist distractions. Don't follow a rabbit trail.
One more thought before I head to work. (I'd much rather be posting here, but duty calls.)
ReplyDeleteThe WCF chapter "Of God's Eternal Decree," concludes III.6, "Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only." Would it strike at the fundamentals of the system of doctrine taught in the Standards to teach otherwise? During the current controversies of the past decade, numerous Reformed churches and individual writers have answered with a resounding "Yes." Does the Federal Vision effectively deny WCF III.6? Again, the answer has been "Yes." We're not talking mere scruple here, or fine-tuning the meaning of "general equity" in the chapter on the law of God (WCF XIX.4). We are rather, at the very heart of Reformed doctrine.
It's interesting and sometimes edifying to discuss lesser matters. But to teach that the "covenantally elect" are justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved - but only temporarily - is to place oneself outside the category of "Reformed." No amount of "scruplizing" can heal that wound.
JJS:
ReplyDeleteYou report this: Rayburn plans to illustrate his position at an upcoming meeting of presbytery by submitting to the credentials committee a 20+-page document listing every single scruple he has with respect to the Westminster Standards. I know what you’re thinking: “How can any minister claim to be a Reformed churchman and yet take that many exceptions to our church’s teaching?”
Dr. Rayburn's action is honorable. In this connection, many times it is helpful to keep in mind that "scruples" and "exceptions" are not the same thing according to the PCA BCO (21.4.f). At the point of ordination exams, a man is required to state his differences with the Confession of Faith and Catechisms; hearing those differences, the church court makes the judgment as to whether the differences are exceptions. So, at the point of ordination, the BCO places the burden on the court, not the man, to decide if a difference is an exception. At least ostensibly, however, according to the PCA ordination vows, the BCO shifts the burden to the man, after his ordination, to "find yourself out of accord with any of the fundamentals of this system of doctrine" and "on your own initiative" to "make known to your Presbytery the change which has taken place in your views since the assumption of this ordination vow." Interesting.
Jerry,
ReplyDeleteWhile I am sympathetic to your (and Dr. Clark's) argument for a new confession, I don't think it could attain this particular goal of uniting these several denominations. Since you seem to be describing organic unity, we would need a unified Book of Church Order to do that. As much as I would love to see these these similarly-minded denominations unified, I believe a commonly approved BCO may actually be tougher than agreement on a confession (I'm thinking about deaconesses, number of offices, ministerial credentials and membership, etc.)
Yes, you make a good point. Either way, if this were ever to happen there would need to be a willingness to compromise on the part of everyone involved. So on the number of offices, the PCA's position could work, which has elements of both two- and three-office polity.
The bigger question is whether any of us thinks that unity even matters. From the resistance I've fet to this idea, my guess is that many of us are perfectly happy the way things are.
Frank,
ReplyDelete"Tu Quoque is a very common fallacy in which one attempts to defend oneself or another from criticism by turning the critique back against the accuser. This is a classic Red Herring since whether the accuser is guilty of the same, or a similar, wrong is irrelevant to the truth of the original charge. However, as a diversionary tactic, Tu Quoque can be very effective, since the accuser is put on the defensive, and frequently feels compelled to defend against the accusation."
I debate with Catholics all the time, trust me: I know all about the tu quoque.
This is an issue that Rayburn has been thinking about for long before there was such a thing as the FV, so I think the idea that the purpose of it is to vindicate Leithart is off the mark. By the time he submits his paper (if he even does), and by the time a new confession is drafted (!), the Leithart issue will be settled.
My point is that this is a discussion worth having, regardless of who is bringing it up. If you prefer, you can picture Scott Clark's face when you read the argument, since he makes it, too.
Andrew,
ReplyDeleteBut our issues with Rayburn's defense of Leithart's version of FV hardly fits into the category of the confessional obscurities that Rayburn raises. So what is Rayburn hoping to accomplish here?
There's the rub. I pointed out to him the irony of his lamentation about how dismissive many are of the Standards since, in the eyes of lots of people (including me), it is this presbytery (led by him) that is the biggest offender in this regard. In other words, where do we get off complaining about confessional infidelity when we fail to discipline Peter Leithart?
So yeah, I get it. I get that there's irony involved here, and that the bigger issue is what actually constitutes a violation of the confession. But that aside (as I say in my post), the issue is interesting and worth discussing.
Personally, it seems like an ad hominem to refuse to hear this argument simply because of who it comes from. Not that you're doing that, but it needs to be said.
Frank,
ReplyDeleteAnd so we come full circle. The only relevant issue is whether the views of Leithart and other FV advocates are incompatible with the Reformed confessions. Let's focus on the issue on hand. Resist distractions. Don't follow a rabbit trail.
If I were posting on the Federal Vision and the PNW Presbytery, then yeah, the only relevant question would be whether Leithart violates the confession or not. But if I'm posting on whether Major League Baseball should widen the strike zone, then that Leithart ceases to be relevant.
Well, this post is not about the FV, it is about the role that our doctrinal standards play in our churches. I am not the only one who has raised the issue, and it is worth discussing. If you don't want to talk about it, no one is forcing you to. If you want to talk about the FV, there are plenty of blogs where you can do that, and there have been plenty of opportunities here to do it as well. But we're not talking about that now, we're talking about something else.
In other words, it's not a "rabbit trail" or "red herring" for me to talk about what I want to talk about on my own blog, simply because it distracts you from what you want to discuss.
I appreciate that in confessing the faith anew we don't desire to cut our ties to our heritage, but in light of the entire "custom" of confessing our faith often, which was the practice of our forefathers, we are less than consistent with our own tradition. It's long past time to confess our faith anew, and yes, maybe confess a little less.
ReplyDelete"The bigger question is whether any of us thinks that unity even matters. From the resistance I've fet to this idea, my guess is that many of us are perfectly happy the way things are.
ReplyDeleteCorrect me here, Jason, but that sounds like you see the opponents of wholesale revision as per force the opponents of unity. Surely that's not what you intend to say. In point of fact, those who argue against revision and for our current Standards are themselves strong proponents of unity. I think you would readily admit that.
Ouch, Jason! Those are strong words to one who's with you on almost everything. Even from this distance, and reading reports second-hand, I believe that the Federal Vision thing must needs be mixed up with this discussion.
ReplyDeleteYou said in your original post, "This will take some time to qualify and explain, but the position of someone like Rayburn is not that the Westminster Standards ought to be set aside or ignored, but rather that the way we treat them in the PCA inevitably (and lamentably) leads to their being set aside and ignored." Connecting this with the reference to Rayburn's 20 pages of scruples, I drew the conclusion (warranted, I thought) that numerous scruples, held in ignorance or privately, amount to setting aside or ignoring the Standards.
I respectfully disagree with that assessment. Certainly, there are Teaching Elders who don't study the Standards carefully. Kudos to Dr. Rayburn for his diligence in documenting his scruples. But laxness on the part of some does not, in my view, lead to the Standards' "being set aside and ignored."
Here is why I took the position I did: I fully realize that you stated a twofold purpose for the meeting-to discuss Leithart's views and to talk "more broadly about the nature and usefulness of confessions." And what does Dr. Rayburn contribute, per your report? A long list of scruples, which, by their very nature, are supposed to be relatively minor matters.
Can you see my concern at all? From my meager knowledge thousands of miles away, I'm suspicious of Rayburn's tactics. In this time of great struggle for the purity of the Gospel against the FV, context means a great deal. You're on the front lines on this, and I'm not. If I smelled a rat where there was none, I stand corrected.
In recounting your response to Rayburn in your reply to Andrew, you seem to confirm what I've been writing. You said, "Where do we get off complaining about confessional infidelity when we fail to discipline Peter Leithart?" My point was that we can't separate the threads in this particular garment, as interesting as the subject may be.
Fair enough, Frank (and I apologize if I came off all snipey, I'm kind of in a bad mood anyway).
ReplyDeleteMy only point is that regardless of Rayburn's tactics or motives, the discussion of whether a new confession is warranted is worthwhile. That's all I'm saying.
Anon,
ReplyDeleteIf you wouldn't mind, please use the drop-down menu to select "Name/URL" so that you can comment under a screen name (either real or made up). It helps the discussion when we can identify who we're talking to.
Correct me here, Jason, but that sounds like you see the opponents of wholesale revision as per force the opponents of unity. Surely that's not what you intend to say. In point of fact, those who argue against revision and for our current Standards are themselves strong proponents of unity. I think you would readily admit that.
No, I don't think that opponents of a new confession are necessarily opponents of unity (and if what I said came off that way, I apologize). What I would say, though, is that there is often such a knee-jerk reaction against this idea that it makes me wonder. Sometimes the vibe I get is that having to give up my young-earth cosmology just so there can be a united Reformed and Presbyterian church wouldn't be a worthwhile trade-off.
But then, maybe unity and Presbyterianism just don't mix.
Thank you again for your work on the front lines, Jason. It's easy for the rest of us to play armchair critic. God bless you in the midst of those pressures. I pray that you will remain strong, faithful, uncompromising, and winsome. Only the grace of God can work that way in us.
ReplyDeleteJJS
ReplyDeleteI understand the desire for a new confession but wouldn't a new confession create just as many problems as it solves?
The new confession would have to be a compromise document even if only the PCA, OPC, and URC were responsible for writing it. (By the way the WRF is currently in the process of writing a new confession for the 21st Century.)
The real question is what exactly is the system of doctrine contained in the Confessions? If elders would take their current responsibility seriously judge whether a particular "scruple" does damage to the system of doctrine then many of these issues would be solved.
Instead of inventing new laws lets simply enforce the laws we already have on the books.
Thank you for your courage to enforce the current laws on the books in your denomination.
Dean,
ReplyDeleteThe real question is what exactly is the system of doctrine contained in the Confessions?
Exactly. And when we allow myriads of exceptions to the confession we now have, it's almost impossible to tell.
An interesting exercise would be to take the text of the WCF and simply omit every word or phrase that we allow exceptions to, and then see how it looks. I am theoretically in favor of strict subscription, as in, "This confession IS the system of doctrine, there's no system within it," but the nature of the WS is such that strict subscription is incredibly difficult.
Jason,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your answers. I wanted to say that I think it's a great thing that you are sitting down with Leithart and Rayburn to talk through the issues. As much as I think I might understand where the FV is coming from based on the on-line discussions I have had with them, I know I can't replicate what goes on in a real conversation with an e-conversation.
I also wanted to put in a plug for the unity of the Reformed confessions in general. Someone coming from a non-Reformed perspective might conclude from reading this thread that that the WCF and other Reformed confessions are just full of contradictions. From my perspective nothing could be further from the truth. Sure there are clarifications needed and we need to address the modern issues and heresies with updated confessions, but I'm always impressed with the amazing degree of unity between the Reformed confessions.
Cheers....
Hey, guys,
ReplyDeleteSince you're tossing around the idea of an updated Reformed confession, here's a link to a recent "statement of faith" anyway that is in the works thru the World Reformed Fellowship:
http://www.wrfnet.org/web/guest/generalassembly
(You have to scroll down the page a bit before the statement of faith starts.)
The goal of the project was to express a Reformed confession in a post-enlightenment, postmodern setting.
I'm not endorsing it or anything (I haven't read it very carefully yet) -- it's just kind of an interesting current development in light of what you're wishing for.
Of course, one wonders whether there are any Presbys anywhere anymore who could agree on enough things to draft such a document together, anymore than my husband and I can manage to work together to produce one of those family Christmastime letters (and we LIKE each other!)...
Pastor Stellman,
ReplyDeleteI like the tenor and point of your post. If I understand you correctly, the basic point is this: (1) Exceptions are being allowed. (2) If exceptions are allowed, then clearly those things are not considered to be core doctrines of the Confession. (3) If those things are not core doctrines, they should not be the standard by which we define ourselves.
So, as far as the basic point goes, I think that makes some sense. However, in order for that to work, it seems to me that we would need a list of what elements of the Standards are not core elements. Would you consider writing out your own list (you've mentioned a few in passing) of which things should not be considered core doctrines, and should therefore be deleted? I'm sure that it is in this that the difficulty will come, because getting the pastors/elders of the PCA (much less other denominations) to agree as to what those are would seem to be quite the task. Without such a list, it seems that people are panicking that we'll just throw out the definition of justification or something.
Joel,
ReplyDeleteI haven't thought enough about it to make an actual list, but if I did, I would probably consider the following things unnecessary, at least as far as their having confessional status is concerned: 6/24 creation, strictness about recreation on the Sabbath, and the spiritual status of Roman Catholics. If there were an accompanying BCO, it wouldn't require catechetical preaching on Sunday evenings (which the Dutch do).
Thanks, Jason for your response. You wrote that "While on the one hand there is no question that the WCF is a consensus document, I don't think it was written for the purpose of people divining a "system" within it as a kind of confession within a confession. The traditional ordination vow seems to say that we receive and adopt the WCF as itself the system taught in the Bible."
ReplyDeleteIt's not that I don't agree, it's just that the reception of the Confession as "as itself the system taught in the Bible" was not "strict" in the sense you and others (I think) afford it. Letham points out in detail how there was much variation on (what are now deemed super-significant) issues among the divines and the fact that their all agreeing to it ought to inform our reception of said document.
As for your examples, I don't think the Standards teaches two possible versions of the covenant of works. Sure, there can be differences of emphasis . . .
And I think that's all Letham really gets at in the book, along with the fact that a few divines outright denied the existence of a pre-fall covenant (and they were still signatories! See pp. 226–32; 261ff.).
…but it seems to me that what FV'ers do is deny the plain teachings of the confession by saying there's not a qualitative and essential difference between the principles of inheritance in the covenants of works and grace.
But to my mind, the question isn't whether or not anybody denies the plain teaching of a human document. The question is whether or not what somebody is denying is tantamount to affirming heresy; or, somewhat more narrowly, tantamount to affirming something so non-Reformed that they ought to just pack up and leave the Reformed camp. That's the real question, right?
And if Richard Baxter and his neonomian crew got away with it (or Gataker and Vines on the floor of the Assembly), why can't Leithart, et al.? (I'm not suggesting he should, I'm just wondering out loud here.)
In the interest of full disclosure, as you know (but onlookers don't) I'm not a PCA Presbyterian and I don't have a stake in this fight. But I'm around it often enough, and so I'm forced to have an opinion.
"From my meager knowledge thousands of miles away, I'm suspicious of Rayburn's tactics. In this time of great struggle for the purity of the Gospel against the FV, context means a great deal".
ReplyDeleteFrank,
That is funny. Dr. Rayburn is about the most un-tactical minister there is. He does the plain old stuff- word & sacraments. Fly a few thousand miles and meet him, and listen to his sermons, then make a judgment. http://www.faithtacoma.org/
Besides, the discussion is about the FV in relation to the WCF, not the Gospel. Jason was not appointed to defend the Gospel at presbytery, but to investigate whether Dr. Leithart is in accord with a church confession, and that not an ecumenical one by the way.
Perspective.
Why should we have confessions or catechisms that contain loads of statements that we all agree are not intrinsic to the Reformed system of doctrine?
ReplyDeleteI've asked that question before myself.
Note that not only Clark, but also Riddlebarger can be heard espousing the need for updated standards.
Like you though, I have little faith that such a project could succeed; certainly it could not get us standards that are as good as Westminster or 3F.
Also, it's kind of funny that Clark pushes for new standards, because the inevitable result would be that he would lose some of his dearest doctrines: exclusive psalmody, sabbatarianism, images of Christ, etc.
Oh, and also, isn't the point of Gal 3:15-- to speak in terms of a testament?
ReplyDeleteJason;
ReplyDeleteOver the past couple of years I have enjoyed reading your comments on Federal Vision and the issues resulting within the PCA. As someone who is required to move every three to fours years because my job as a US Army Officer these posts have helped me figure out what to look for in a PCA church in my new assignments. I have recently move to Honolulu, HI and am having trouble determining if any of the three churches here on Oahu are connected with FV or not and wanted to know if you had any insight or could provide me a point of contact.
Thank you for your diligence.
Ma-halo,
Daphany Prewitt
daphany at gmail.com
How about the Three Forms of Unity? The Heidelberg Catechism, especially, is a gem.
ReplyDeleteAnnie Kate