Part II – Understanding Christ’s Cry of Abandonment

Posted by on April 8, 2015 in Atonement, Catholicism, Death, Deification, Exegesis, Gospel, Imputation, Incarnation, Justification, Love, Perspicuity of Scripture, Protestantism, Redemptive History, Reformed Theology, Romans, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Theology of the Cross | 2,727 comments

In response to the last post (Understanding Christ’s Cry of Abandonment), I have been asked about Pope Saint John Paul’s II comment on Christ’s cry, taken from one his Encyclical On the Christian Meaning of Human Suffering:

One can say that these words on abandonment are born at the level of that inseparable union of the Son with the Father, and are born because the Father “laid on him the iniquity of us all”. They also foreshadow the words of Saint Paul: “For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin”. Together with this horrible weight, encompassing the “entire” evil of the turning away from God which is contained in sin, Christ, through the divine depth of his filial union with the Father, perceives in a humanly inexpressible way this suffering which is the separation, the rejection by the Father, the estrangement from God.

The question posed to me is whether this quote is teaching that the Protestant Penal Substitutionary understanding of Christ’s cry of abandonment does indeed have some validity within the Catholic understanding of the atonement. That is a good question, and I think the best place to turn for an answer is to other comments made by Popes John Paul II and Benedict on this very issue.

The following are some excerpts from the handful of times each Pope has commented specifically upon this verse. Note: I have trimmed down many of these quotes to hopefully shorten the length of this post, as well as underlined the portions that apply to us, while putting in bold the portions that apply to Christ.

John Paul II: At the same time the dying Redeemer’s entreaty rings out in the liturgy: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Mt 27: 46; Mk 15: 34). We often feel this cry of suffering as “our own” in the painful situations of life which can cause deep distress and give rise to worry and uncertainty. In moments of loneliness and bewilderment, which are not unusual in human life, a believer’s heart can exclaim: the Lord has abandoned me! However, Christ’s Passion and his glorification on the tree of the Cross offer a different key for reading these events. On Golgotha the Father, at the height of his Only-begotten Son’s sacrifice, does not abandon him, but brings to completion his plan of salvation for all humanity. In his Passion, Death and Resurrection, we are shown that the last word in human existence is not death but God’s victory over death. [General Audience, Wednesday 19 April, 2000]

This is precisely the theme/lesson I had brought up in the previous post. The cry is essentially a “Why?” prayer to God about suffering, which we know as Christians is answered in Christ’s Resurrection, when God shows that He does hear our prayers and does bring good out of the suffering we endure in life.

 John Paul II: When he is on the Cross, the spectators will sarcastically remind him of his declaration:  “He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him; for he said, “I am the Son of God’” (Mt 27: 43). But at that hour the Father was silent in his regard, so that he could show his full solidarity with sinners and redeem them. As the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches:  “Jesus did not experience reprobation as if he himself had sinned. But in the redeeming love that always united him to the Father, he assumed us in the state of our waywardness of sin” (n. 603). On the cross Jesus actually continues his intimate dialogue with the Father, living it with the full force of his lacerated and suffering humanity, never losing the trusting attitude of the Son who is “one” with the Father. On the one hand, there is the Father’s mysterious silence, accompanied by cosmic darkness and pierced by the cry (Mt 27: 46). On the other hand, Psalm 22, quoted here by Jesus, ends with a hymn to the sovereign Lord of the world and of history. [General Audience, Wednesday 3 May, 2000]

 This quote is significant because it both identifies the “abandonment” as the Father’s “silence,” and it also quotes a key portion of the Catechism on this matter, paragraph 603. Jesus is showing “solidarity with sinners,” not taking their punishment in their place, not being forsaken by God in their place, but rather ‘feeling what they feel’. Our ‘state of waywardness’ is living in this fallen world, surrounded by evil and suffering, which Jesus chose to enter into. The Pope calls Christ’s cry an “intimate dialog with the Father,” which is odd if (as Protestants say) this is the epitome of the Father’s wrath upon Christ.

John Paul II: Then Jesus adds: “My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?” (Mt 27:46; cf. Ps 22:2). These words of the Psalm are his prayer. Despite their tone, these words reveal the depths of his union with the Father. In the last moments of his life on earth, Jesus thinks of the Father. [Good Friday, Stations of the Cross, 2000]

This is a common theme throughout these quotes: What has been called “Jesus’ cry” is more accurately Jesus praying to the Father. This is a prayer, it isn’t an expression of pain simply vocalized for the audience. The prayer signifies Christ’s intimate union with the Father, hence why He says “My” God. Jesus is praying from the heart; He is not suffering wrath.

John Paul II: Jesus’ cry on the Cross, dear Brothers and Sisters, is not the cry of anguish of a man without hope, but the prayer of the Son who offers his life to the Father in love, for the salvation of all. At the very moment when he identifies with our sin, “abandoned” by the Father, he “abandons” himself into the hands of the Father. His eyes remain fixed on the Father. Precisely because of the knowledge and experience of the Father which he alone has, even at this moment of darkness he sees clearly the gravity of sin and suffers because of it. He alone, who sees the Father and rejoices fully in him, can understand completely what it means to resist the Father’s love by sin. Faced with this mystery, we are greatly helped not only by theological investigation but also by that great heritage which is the “lived theology” of the saints. The saints offer us precious insights which enable us to understand more easily the intuition of faith, thanks to the special enlightenment which some of them have received from the Holy Spirit, or even through their personal experience of those terrible states of trial which the mystical tradition describes as the “dark night”. Not infrequently the saints have undergone something akin to Jesus’ experience on the Cross in the paradoxical blending of bliss and pain. In the Dialogue of Divine Providence, God the Father shows Catherine of Siena how joy and suffering can be present together in holy souls: “Thus the soul is blissful and afflicted: afflicted on account of the sins of its neighbour, blissful on account of the union and the affection of charity which it has inwardly received. These souls imitate the spotless Lamb, my Only-begotten Son, who on the Cross was both blissful and afflicted“. In the same way, Thérèse of Lisieux lived her agony in communion with the agony of Jesus, “experiencing” in herself the very paradox of Jesus’s own bliss and anguish: “In the Garden of Olives our Lord was blessed with all the joys of the Trinity, yet his dying was no less harsh. It is a mystery, but I assure you that, on the basis of what I myself am feeling, I can understand something of it“. What an illuminating testimony! [Apostolic Letter NOVO MILLENNIO INEUNTE]

This is a powerful insight by the Pope because he says Christ’s cry of abandonment is akin to “the dark night of the soul,” wherein the saints experienced both God’s joy and suffering, even spiritual dryness. How could the Pope even say this if he understood Christ’s words to be suffering damnation in place of the believer?

Benedict XVI: Christ’s prayer reaches its culmination on the Cross. It is expressed in those last words which the Evangelists have recorded. Where he seems to utter a cry of despair: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Mt 27: 46; Mk 15: 34; cf. Ps 22: 1), Christ was actually making his own the invocation of someone beset by enemies with no escape, who has no one other than God to turn to and, over and above any human possibilities, experiences his grace and salvation. With these words of the Psalm, first of a man who is suffering, then of the People of God in their suffering, caused by God’s apparent absence, Jesus made his own this cry of humanity that suffers from God’s apparent absence, and carried this cry to the Father’s heart. So, by praying in this ultimate solitude together with the whole of humanity, he opens the Heart of God to us. There is no contradiction between these words in Psalm 22 and the words full of filial trust: “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit” (Lk 23: 46; cf. Ps 31: 5). These words, also taken from Psalm 31, are the dramatic imploration of a person who, abandoned by all, is sure he can entrust himself to God. The prayer of supplication full of hope is consequently the leitmotif of Lent and enables us to experience God as the only anchor of salvation.  [Ash Wednesday, 2008]

Jesus identifies with mankind in experiencing “God’s apparent absence” when man cries out to God in the midst of their suffering. But given that Jesus was praying from the heart here, this prayer touched the Father’s heart, which in turn “opens the heart of God to us.” This is how Jesus is making atonement and interceding for us, not by taking our punishment in the Penal Substitutionary sense. The Pope even goes onto say Jesus’ prayer “Father into your hands I commit my spirit” is saying the same thing as “My God, why have you abandoned me,” and yet we know the former cannot be construed to mean the Father’s wrath, so neither can the latter (since they are both ultimately saying the same prayer).

Pope Benedict XVI: Jesus, with the cry of his prayer, shows that with the burden of suffering and death in which there seems to be abandonment, the absence of God, Jesus is utterly certain of the closeness of the Father who approves this supreme act of love, the total gift of himself, although the voice from on high is not heard, as it was on other occasions. This also happens in our relationship with the Lord: when we face the most difficult and painful situations, when it seems that God does not hear, we must not be afraid to entrust the whole weight of our overburdened hearts to him, we must not fear to cry out to him in our suffering, we must be convinced that God is close, even if he seems silent. However a question arises within us: how is it possible that such a powerful God does not intervene to save his Son from this terrible trial? It is important to understand that Jesus’ prayer is not the cry of one who meets death with despair, nor is it the cry of one who knows he has been forsaken. At this moment Jesus makes his own the whole of Psalm 22, the Psalm of the suffering People of Israel. In this way he takes upon himself not only the sin of his people, but also that of all men and women who are suffering from the oppression of evil and, at the same time, he places all this before God’s own heart, in the certainty that his cry will be heard in the Resurrection. In this prayer of Jesus are contained his extreme trust and his abandonment into God’s hands, even when God seems absent, even when he seems to be silent, complying with a plan incomprehensible to us. In the Catechism of the Catholic Church we read: “in the redeeming love that always united him to the Father, he assumed us in the state of our waywardness of sin, to the point that he could say in our name from the cross: ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’” (n. 603). His is a suffering in communion with us and for us, which derives from love and already bears within it redemption, the victory of love. At the supreme moment, Jesus gives vent to his heart’s grief, but at the same time makes clear the meaning of the Father’s presence and his consent to the Father’s plan of salvation of humanity. (GENERAL AUDIENCE, Wednesday, 8 February 2012 – Homily on Christ’s cry of abandonment]

Unlike other times when the voice of the Father boomed from Heaven, “This is my beloved Son,” no such confirmation came here, which certainly was a hard reality to bear. Yet even in the midst of Jesus saying God has abandoned Him, the Pope explains that Jesus knows the Father is indeed near. The abandonment is only apparent. And as with John Paul II above, here we see Benedict explicitly quoting CCC#603, showing that there’s no wrath or Penal Substitution component to it.

Benedict XVI: Often we cannot understand why God refrains from intervening. Yet he does not prevent us from crying out, like Jesus on the Cross: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Mt 27:46). We should continue asking this question in prayerful dialogue before his face. Our protest is not meant to challenge God, or to suggest that error, weakness or indifference can be found in him. Instead, our crying out is, as it was for Jesus on the Cross, the deepest and most radical way of affirming our faith in his sovereign power. Even in their bewilderment and failure to understand the world around them, Christians continue to believe in the “goodness and loving kindness of God” (Tit 3:4). Immersed like everyone else in the dramatic complexity of historical events, they remain unshakably certain that God is our Father and loves us, even when his silence remains incomprehensible. [Deus Caritas Est]

This lesson is the essence of a spiritually mature person: the one who knows suffering is all part of God’s plan and that God indeed does hear us, and does still love us, even if He is not answering us – especially during the truly rough times.

Benedict XVI: This Psalm presents the figure of an innocent man, persecuted and surrounded by adversaries who clamour for his death; and he turns to God with a sorrowful lament which, in the certainty of his faith, opens mysteriously to praise. His initial cry is an appeal addressed to a God who appears remote, who does not answer and seems to have abandoned him: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from helping me, from the words of my groaning? O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer; and by night, but find no rest” (vv. 3-4). God is silent and this silence pierces the soul of the person praying, who ceaselessly calls but receives no answer. Day and night succeed one another in an unflagging quest for a word, for help that does not come, God seems so distant, so forgetful, so absent. The prayer asks to be heard, to be answered, it begs for contact, seeks a relationship that can give comfort and salvation. And like the oppressed righteous man in the Book of Wisdom (cf. 2:12-20), like Jesus on Calvary (cf. Mt 27:39-43), the Psalmist saw his own relationship with the Lord called into question in the cruel and sarcastic emphasis of what is causing him to suffer: God’s silence, his apparent absence. And yet God was present with an indisputable tenderness in the life of the person praying. This is a cry that opens the Heavens, because it proclaims a faith, a certainty that goes beyond all doubt, all darkness and all desolation. And the lament is transformed, it gives way to praise in the acceptance of salvation: “He has heard… I will tell of your name to my brethren; in the midst of the congregation I will praise you” (vv. 22c-23). Dear brothers and sisters, this Psalm has taken us to Golgotha, to the foot of the cross of Jesus, to relive his passion and to share the fruitful joy of the resurrection. Let us therefore allow ourselves to be invaded by the light of the paschal mystery even in God’s apparent absence, even in God’s silence, and, like the disciples of Emmaus, let us learn to discern the true reality beyond appearances, recognizing humiliation itself as the way to exaltation, and the cross as the full manifestation of life in earth. [General Audience, 14 September, 2011 – Homily on Psalm 22:1]

The Pope says Jesus’ cry is “a cry that opens the Heavens”! That’s quite strange if this cry is the cry of someone undergoing the Father’s wrath! Rather, this cry of abandonment is actually a demonstration of such confidence that God will deliver (He just isn’t at the moment), that God looks upon this act of confidence very favorably.

From these quotes, we can get a pretty good idea of how Christ’s cry of abandonment is to be understood from the Catholic perspective. Notice that nowhere is there any mention of God’s wrath being poured out upon Jesus. Nowhere is the Protestant notion of Penal Substitution being expressed here. Quite the opposite, in fact. Christ is praying to the Father here, not getting hurt by the Father, and His prayer expresses confidence that God will make everything right, rather than being about desolation.

Before I conclude, I think it’s very beneficial to us all that the Popes spoke upon paragraph 603 in the Catechism, which quotes Christ’s cry of abandonment and is at the heart of the section on the Atonement. (I invite all readers to actually read the whole section of the Catechism on this matter, it’s a relatively short read.) In reading the whole section, one will see that nowhere is Christ’s work on the Cross ever described in terms of Jesus undergoing the Father’s wrath. In fact, we see many signs of just the opposite idea. The Catechism states that “sinners were the authors and ministers of all the sufferings” Jesus endured (598), and that the only role God played was indirect, i.e., “God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness” (600) and “the Father handed his Son over to sinners” (614). This is impossible if (as Protestants say) the chief suffering was directly by the Father, invisibly undergoing His wrath.

Indeed, the very context of #603 ties in with the original quote in question:

For our sake God made him to be sin

602 Consequently, St. Peter can formulate the apostolic faith in the divine plan of salvation in this way: “You were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your fathers. . . with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of the times for your sake.” Man’s sins, following on original sin, are punishable by death. By sending his own Son in the form of a slave, in the form of a fallen humanity, on account of sin, God “made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.”

603 Jesus did not experience reprobation as if he himself had sinned. But in the redeeming love that always united him to the Father, he assumed us in the state of our waywardness of sin, to the point that he could say in our name from the cross: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”406 Having thus established him in solidarity with us sinners, God “did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all“, so that we might be “reconciled to God by the death of his Son”.

Notice these two paragraphs fall under the heading of “for our sake God made him to be sin” (2 Corinthians 5:21), which I had shown in a prior article has nothing to do with Protestant Imputation, but rather the Incarnation. The Logos takes on our fallen humanity, as the Catechism says: “sending his own son in the form of a fallen humanity,” which is a direct reference to Romans 8:3. This is the context from which flows paragraph 603. And note that Romans 8:32 is also quoted here in explanation of the abandonment, namely that God “delivered up” Jesus into the hands of sinners and doesn’t rescue Him from this miserable situation, which is precisely how the Church Fathers interpret the abandonment.

Now we can get a better idea of the original quote of Saint John Paul II. Jesus is not suffering the Father’s wrath or ‘spiritual abandonment’, but rather the natural consequences of a fallen world and fallen humanity. Jesus “sees” the ugliness of what offending God really means, particularly since sin by its very act is a ‘turning away’ from God. Christ assumed our humanity so that He could heal it, which is precisely the point of the Encyclical. The Encyclical says nothing of God’s wrath, but rather focuses on the issue of human suffering from a ‘medicinal’ perspective, and how Christ’s suffering gives meaning to our own, especially in how we are called to participate in redemptive suffering. This is why in context he says: “in a certain sense He annihilates this evil in the spiritual space of the relationship between God and humanity, and fills this space with good”. So no, Jesus did “did not experience [abandonment] as if he himself had sinned,” but through the Incarnation he partook in the misery we partaking in and transformed it, turning it into something bearable and having meaning, even a “ladder to Heaven.”

 

2,727 Comments

  1. Mateo,

    Apologies to you and Jonathan for my snottiness. I will pray for the guy in question at my Holy Hour that starts in about an hour and half.

  2. Jim,

    This aspect of the Atonement was addressed even earlier by Irenaeus and other Fathers in the Recapitulation theory. That theory says that a New Adam and a New Eve were needed to retrace the steps of the Fall and untie the knot tied by Adam and Eve’s disobedience.

    Reformed thought on the atonement is a development of the recapitulation theory minus the notion of Mary as the new Eve. Christ had to succeed where Adam failed, thus his being subject to the temptation, the covenant of works, and so on. Irenaeus was right that Christ had to recapitulate Adam even if he wasn’t always clear or correct on what that meant.

    So, the Fathers did not teach Calvinism’s Penal Substitution theory. Anselm did not teach it. Aquinas sure didn’t either.

    All of that is wrong. Penal substitution is a development of the thought of all the groups and individuals you mention.

  3. Michael Taylor, you write:

    If ice cream is a choice …

    De gustibus non est disputandum – in matters of taste, there is no dispute. Some men prefer strawberry ice cream over chocolate ice cream, and they will choose strawberry every time. No sin is involved in liking strawberry more than chocolate.

    If I find myself mowing my lawn, it looks like the lesser desire won out. But in retrospect, mowing the lawn won out because of my even greater desire to please my wife and my neighbors, all of whom are counting on me to do my part to prevent them from looking at an eye soar

    And if you find yourself hitting the meth pipe instead of mowing the lawn, what does that prove other than you have a meth addiction that has you in its bondage? To overcome your meth addiction, you would need to break out of your denial and admit that you have a serious problem that you have no control over. The next step would be for you to turn to Christ for him to save you from your addiction. To actually overcome your addiction, you can’t be passive and think that God is going to meat puppet you into sobriety, nor can you fall into the deadly OSAS snare and think that you can keep smoking meth and be assured that you are not committing damnable sin.

    To be freed of your meth addiction you will have to work the steps that let you overcome your addiction – you need the grace that convicts you of your sin that breaks you out of your denial, and you need to cooperate with that grace that God is giving you when you work the twelve steps.

    You may not have a meth addiction, (and I don’t think that you do) but we are all born in bondage to sin. Protestantism, at its best, is like a twelve step program helping people live sober lives. The Pentecostals Protestants bring the addition of the charismatic graces to the twelve step program, which can help in healing and deliverance from evil. But God wants something much more than Christians being sober men that live morally decent lives – that is expected of all men. God wants to see great holiness from his adopted children; God wants to see his adopted children manifest heroic charity. To achieve the highest levels of sanctity and charity, the Sacraments are necessary, not optional.

    One of the great tragedies of Protestantism is that it has cut the poor children of Esau off from their birthright and blessing – the Sacrament of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

  4. Eric W.,

    Francis de Sales?!?! The super anti-Calvinist? Whether you want him or not, he still is your Confirmation saint.

    Anyway, since you are my handy interlocutor, I am going to remind you that in the OT sacrificial system ,God demanded animals, wine, flour and incense be offered to him although he needed none of those things. Why?

    I Chron. 21:24

    But King David said to Ornan, “No, but I will surely buy it for the full price; for I will not take what is yours for the LORD, or offer a burnt offering which costs me nothing.”

    Sacrifice without inner conversion meant zero. But inner conversion was 100% sufficient either. God wanted conversion to pinch, to cost. This was to help correct and restore the sinner to God, this fellows and to himself and strengthen him against falling into the same sin again.

    You say this is all by Faith.
    Faith is certainly the beginning but since Faith can exist without the inner transformation I have been speaking of, it is not sufficient. Besides, what is the connection between Faith and the cross? I understand how you guys say Faith apprehends the imputed righteousness of Christ but how does it ALONE sanctify?
    You did, in so many words, say you believe in holy living as being necessary. You stopped just short of endorsing works of supererogation whether you know it or not.

    No, the Catholic view of the Atonement, where Christ is Head of all his Body’s members, meriting and satisfying for them, so their sufferings and satisfactions can be supernaturalized and salvific is the biblical way to go. And it brings the Sacraments into the picture .
    Christ’s parable of the Prodigal Son and the Council of Trent demonstrate that justification is restoring broken family relations, not imputing a legal fiction to anybody.
    That is why our view of Calvary that has Mary given as mother and mediatress to each and every person for whom Christ died ( Every man, woman and child who has ever lived or who will ever live ) is light years ahead of the Calvinist distortion of the cross .

  5. Robert,

    “Reformed thought on the atonement is a development of the recapitulation theory minus the notion of Mary as the new Eve. ”

    Huh? This is fascinating. You have never said this before. Not on this blog.
    The question I have got to ask is why not the New Eve part?

  6. Jim, you asked:
    Ever think about coming back?

    No, because in Christ alone is the fullness. The fullness of Christ isn’t in any visible universal church. To go back is to return to a manifest Antichrist.

    Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. – 2Thess. 2:3,4

    For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. – John 1:16
    ————————

    Will you come to me ? I’m light in the Lord.

    for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light – Eph.5:8

    What holds you back belongs to you.

    You are not restrained by us, but you are restrained in your own affections. – 2Cor. 6:12

  7. Eric W,.

    I am going to drag your post over here from ‘earlier comments” so we can talk about it.
    You said,
    “I believe that by faith alone in Christ alone as Mediator and Head you receive the supply need. I do believe that Eternal Life is the term or end of Sanctification and Adoption. If you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you will live. That’s a promise, so we mortify by faith. Faith alone doesn’t mortify, but it is the sole instrument God uses to justifiy the sinner. Only the justified can mortify unto a life promised. I stay away from “merit” because, like “free will,” it vexes the little ones among God’s people.

    “I do believe that Eternal Life is the term or end of Sanctification and Adoption. If you mortify the deeds…”.

    This golden, This is pure Council of Trent teaching.
    Titus 3 says we are save by REGENERATION. Therefore regeneration=justification contrary to the split put between them by Luther ( so says Alistair McGrath ).

  8. Eric W,.

    “Only the justified can mortify unto a life promised. I stay away from “merit” because, like “free will,” it vexes..”.

    Indeed! Only one in a state of sanctifying grace can merit ( whether you like the word or not ).

    I can’t figure why you left the Church if you believe this stuff?

    Like a Protestant you profess Faith Alone but your views on the link between sanctification in this life being what blossoms into life in heaven sounds Catholic.

  9. Eric W,.

    “Faith alone doesn’t mortify, but it is the sole instrument God uses to justifiy the sinner.”

    So, does alien, imputed, forensic justification grasped by Faith alone get us into heaven? Or does the inner transformation you call “mortification”?

  10. Eric W.,

    I gotta get over to Adoration to relieve the person already there. Before I go, let me say that I have seen young people enter the Church and immediately get drawn into extreme, Latin Mass Only, spirituality. That is well and good. But I have seen those same young people, who have no recollection of the old days, start to be critical of the Novus Ordo rank and file hoi polloi and then get sick of the whole thing and drift away.
    I think I am finally beginning to understand you.
    Gotta go pray for someone. I will include you too.

  11. Jim, you wrote:
    Francis de Sales?!?! The super anti-Calvinist? Whether you want him or not, he still is your Confirmation saint.

    He’s my Confirmation Saint whether you write “you want him or not” or not.
    ———————–

    You wrote:
    This golden, This is pure Council of Trent teaching.

    It’s ok to agree with parts of the Council. I’m not sure your correct, but it’s not my job to judge the correctness.
    ——————–

    You wrote:
    Indeed! Only one in a state of sanctifying grace can merit ( whether you like the word or not ).

    I’m vexed and you don’t even see why.
    ———————

    You wrote:
    Like a Protestant you profess Faith Alone but your views on the link between sanctification in this life being what blossoms into life in heaven sounds Catholic.

    Good. You are running out of reasons to not come to me and the Lord.
    ———————-

    You asked:
    So, does alien, imputed, forensic justification grasped by Faith alone get us into heaven? Or does the inner transformation you call “mortification”?

    “get us into” means nothing. In fact, its a trap. Eternal Life is the term or end of forensic justification and mortification. Believe in Jesus alone, our righteousness, and God will impute His righteousness to you. You will have Eternal Life because it’s promised. The same thing with moritifying the deed of the flesh. Believe the promises and start doing what He calls you to do. Keep your merit and free will because my Bible doesn’t require me to take them. Your key-holding pope binds your affections against me.

  12. Eric W, you write:

    I do believe that Eternal Life is the term or end of Sanctification and Adoption.

    And that is where you are making a big mistake.

    Eternal life is life without beginning or end, which should give you pause, since you are a created being with a beginning. If you understood St. John the Evangelist, you would understand that Jesus Christ is the eternal life of the Christian. Eternal life is not the guarantee of a legal fiction that is obtained by an act of faith-alone.

    St. John makes it perfectly clear that Jesus Christ is the eternal life of the Christian:

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    He was in the beginning with God; all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. … That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life – the life was made manifest, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life which was with the Father and was made manifest to us …
    John 1: 1-4 & 1 John 1:1-2

    Eternal life is Jesus Christ, and a Christian has eternal life when he has eternal life abiding in him (which he first receives by being baptismally regenerated).

    You deny it, but St. John makes it clear that Christians can lose the abiding presence of eternal life when they commit mortal sin. St. John explicitly mentions two mortal sins in his first epistle, the sins of murder and hatred of a brother:

    He who loves his brother abides in the light, and in it there is no cause for stumbling.
    But he who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. … No one born of God commits sin; for God’s nature abides in him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God. By this it may be seen who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not do right is not of God, nor he who does not love his brother. … Any one who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. … All who keep his commandments abide in him, and he in them. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given us.
    1 John 2:10-11 & 1 John 3:9-10; 3:15; 3:24

    Protestant OSAS is false doctrine because it contradicts the clear teaching of scripture . The abiding presence of eternal life can be lost by the sin of hatred (among other mortal sins).

    Satan has a spirit of hatred, but the Holy Spirit is love, and if we love as Jesus loves, it is because the Spirit that dwells in us and allows us to share in God’s nature.

  13. Eric W Said ” no, because Christ alone is the fullness.” And this really is the issue. The Lord’s supper is never a sacrifice, but a commemoration of the one sacrifice that saved us, we trust in, whole full efficacy is ours by faith. He doesn’t offer us His flesh in the supper, but His merit freely received by faith. The sacrifice for believers was the on the cross, the bread of the Supper isn’t the sacrifice for our sins, but the confirmation of an acceptance we already have by faith. Catholicism, summited in the Mass is a distrust in the one perfecting sacrifice on the cross, unbelief, denial of the fullness in Christ alone. The go out and do your part gospel won’t save one soul. K

  14. Michael–

    I think we were talking past one another. When I speak of culpability, I include the connotations of the word. Its basic meaning is “guilt,” but it has secondary meanings of “liability” and “accountability.” All infants are born with original sin–that is consensus among the Reformed. But there is no consensus on what happens to those dying in infancy.

    The WCF states that the elect, dying in infancy, are regenerated and saved. It declines to say whether or not ALL infants are elect.

    Charles Spurgeon, John Piper, Ronald Nash, and a number of Old Princeton theologians have taken this latter stance. In essence, they are holding to the notion that infants, having no actual sin (in spite of their inborn sinful condition), ARE NOT LIABLE to judgment. At the very least, all Calvinists believe that however many infants may be elect, none are liable to judgment despite an inability to possess faith, through which we are saved. Their original sin does not leave them culpable.

    Here is an article from Third Millenium (a thoroughly orthodox Reformed site) explaining this further:

    http://thirdmill.org/answers/answer.asp/file/40388

  15. Mateo said ” eternal life is not the guarantee of a legal fiction that can be obtained by faith alone.” You can’t be this dumb. Now I understand why you are charged with be ignorant of Reformed doctrine. Romans 4:16 says if a Romanist wants to be saved by grace alone, it Wil have to be by faith alone. Christ fulfilling all righteousness and living the law in our place is not a legal fiction, it’s a biblical reality. He became sin, we became the righteousness of God in Him 2 Corinthians 5:21, watch this Mateo, ” the righteous shall live by faith” Paul calls me righteous. Why?, because I am. No, because He counts me so. Abraham simply believed the promise and he was righteous. God passed over the Jews at Passover ( forensic) , it wasn’t a renovation project. K

  16. Eric, if you believe that infants aren’t liable to judgment, you deny we are sinners in Adam by hereditary right. And you’re wrong. God bless. K

  17. Mateo said ” you deny that John said that one can lose abiding eternal life by committing one mortal sin. ” I deny it. The man in 1 Corinthians 5 had his Fathers wife and Paul said he was worst than all the gentiles, and He was saved. Romans 5:10 says we are saved by HIS life, HIS life, HIS life. NOT THAT OF YOURSELVES, NOT OF WORKS. What part of you have nothing to do with it don’t you understand? GOD , please remove the veil from their eyes, let the blind philosophers here with IQs of 50000 see the gospel isn’t go out and do your part, it’s He did it all! It’s all paid for, even our sanctification. Stop wth the compulsory. God wants no compulsory, our works are our reasonable service of worship. No sin separates a believer from God. K

  18. Kevin–

    WHY do you believe this is wrong? (I haven’t actually made up my mind on the matter, but John MacArthur has. He disagrees with you.)

  19. Mateo,

    I wrote:
    do believe that Eternal Life is the term or end of Sanctification and Adoption.

    You wrote:
    And that is where you are making a big mistake.

    Response:
    Eternal life as a term or end is legit language among RC and Protestants.

  20. Jim, you wrote:
    Before I go, let me say that I have seen young people enter the Church and immediately get drawn into extreme, Latin Mass Only, spirituality…..I think I am finally beginning to understand you.

    Response:
    I drew more water from this well….

    3. It is at such a moment as this that we get a better understanding of the value of historical tradition and the communion of the saints. This change will affect the ceremonies of the Mass. We shall become aware, perhaps with some feeling of annoyance, that the ceremonies at the altar are no longer being carried out with the same words and gestures to which we were accustomed—perhaps so much accustomed that we no longer took any notice of them. This change also touches the faithful. It is intended to interest each one of those present, to draw them out of their customary personal devotions or their usual torpor.

    6. This first reason is not simply canonical—relating to an external precept. It is connected with the charism of the liturgical act. In other words, it is linked with the power and efficacy of the Church’s prayer, the most authoritative utterance of which comes from the Bishop. This is also true of priests, who help the Bishop in his ministry, and like him act in persona Christi (cf. St. Ign., ad Eph. I, V). It is Christ’s will, it is the breath of the Holy Spirit which calls the Church to make this change. A prophetic moment is occurring in the mystical body of Christ, which is the Church. This moment is shaking the Church, arousing it, obliging it to renew the mysterious art of its prayer.

    8. It is here that the greatest newness is going to be noticed, the newness of language. No longer Latin, but the spoken language will be the principal language of the Mass. The introduction of the vernacular will certainly be a great sacrifice for those who know the beauty, the power and the expressive sacrality of Latin. We are parting with the speech of the Christian centuries; we are becoming like profane intruders in the literary preserve of sacred utterance. We will lose a great part of that stupendous and incomparable artistic and spiritual thing, the Gregorian chant.

    https://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P6691126.HTM

    ————————————-

    Understanding me is understand how and why I help raze the bastions.

  21. ERIC W May 25, 2015 at 11:40 am
    Jim, you asked:
    Ever think about coming back?
    No, because in Christ alone is the fullness.

    The fullness of the Godhead.
    Colossians 2:9
    For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    The fullness of Christ isn’t in any visible universal church.

    I’m afraid so.

    Ephesians 4 King James Version (KJV)

    1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, 2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

    4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

    One Body, is a reference to the Church. One Faith, is a reference to the Church.

    6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
    7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

    11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

    The Body of Christ is a reference to the Church. We can easily cross reference this verse to another almost identical.

    1 Corinthians 12:28
    And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

    13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

    The unity of faith, is in the Catholic Church, wherein you find the fulness of Christ.

    To go back is to return to a manifest Antichrist.

    On the contrary, to remain outside and against the Catholic Church is to remain an anti-Christ.

    Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs

    The Protestant rebellion

    and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

    Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, and the list goes on

    He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. – 2Thess. 2:3,4

    The Pope does not call Himself, God. But the Vicar of Christ and God’s representative upon earth:

    2 Corinthians 5:20
    Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

    For of His fullness we have all received,

    In the Holy Eucharist.

    and grace upon grace.

    When eat partake of the Body and Blood of our Lord.

    – John 1:16

    Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

    And people who reject the Eucharist, put themselves at enmity with God.
    ————————
    Will you come to me ? I’m light in the Lord.
    for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light – Eph.5:8

    Ephesians 5 King James Version (KJV)

    1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

    2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

    That describes the Holy Eucharist.

    3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

    This is a command to keep the Ten Commandments. You do recognize the “thou shalt nots” there, don’t you?

    8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: 9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) 10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

    This is a command to do that which is meritorious in the eyes of God.

    What holds you back belongs to you.

    Exactly. That which holds you back, out of the Catholic Church, out of the Mount Zion, belongs to you.

    Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

    You are not restrained by us, but you are restrained in your own affections. – 2Cor. 6:12

    THAT is the Church, calling out to you. You are being held back by your own sins.

    11 We have spoken freely to you, Corinthians, and opened wide our hearts to you. 12 We are not withholding our affection from you, but you are withholding yours from us. 13 As a fair exchange—I speak as to my children—open wide your hearts also.

    The Church speaks to you as her child by the grace of our Lord.

    14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial[b]?

    Therefore, come out from that unbelieving Protestant sect and be united to Christ, in the Church, the House of the Living God, the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth.

  22. FRED May 25, 2015 at 1:44 pm
    Mateo said ” you deny that John said that one can lose abiding eternal life by committing one mortal sin. ” I deny it. The man in 1 Corinthians 5 had his Fathers wife and Paul said he was worst than all the gentiles, and He was saved.

    Uh? Scripture doesn’t say that he was saved. Scripture says he was forgiven by the Church, though.

    Romans 5:10 says we are saved by HIS life, HIS life, HIS life.

    Which we receive in the Holy Eucharist.

    NOT THAT OF YOURSELVES, NOT OF WORKS.

    Rom 2:13 says that if you don’t the works of the Law, you are not just in the eyes of God.

    What part of you have nothing to do with it don’t you understand?

    What part of continuing in good works don’t you understand?

    Romans 2:7New International Version (NIV)

    7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

    GOD , please remove the veil from their eyes, let the blind philosophers here with IQs of 50000 see the gospel isn’t go out and do your part, it’s He did it all!

    You had better take up your cross. Otherwise, you will not merit eternal life:

    Matthew 10:38
    Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

    It’s all paid for, even our sanctification. Stop wth the compulsory. God wants no compulsory, our works are our reasonable service of worship. No sin separates a believer from God. K

    Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

    Sounds like you’re contradicting Scripture, Fred.

  23. Robert,

    You said your view of the Atonement is taken from the Recapitulation theory sans the Marian stuff.

    I gotta ask how this is possible? Without the ( Ever ) Virgin Mary’s obedience “untying the knot tied by the virgin Eve’s disobedience”, how can you have a the of recapitulation?
    My Recapitulation theory comes from the Fathers. Yours does not.
    My point was that the theory of the Atonement held by the Fathers was not yours.

    Okay? So how can you make that strange assertion? I would love to digress and show how, from the Bible, Mary participated in the Atonement but that is not my point right now. I merely asserted that the Fathers said she did.
    My point still stands, Calvinism’s view of the Atonement is innovative, without any solid historic support from the Fathers, Anselm or Aquinas.

  24. Eric W.,

    I mentioned to Kenneth last month that while rubber necking the churches in Paris over Holy Week , I just happened in on two Tridentine Rite Masses underway in the same church at the same time. One at the central altar and one being said privately at the altar of martyrs of the Revolution.

    What I found interesting was the age of those in attendance. Maybe one or two people were old enough to remember the halcyon days of Latin Mass only.
    The girls were all in mantillas or scarves and modestly dressed. No mini dresses or any of the styles that could be immediately seen by stepping outside the door of the church building.

    Why are so many young people drawn to a spirituality they have no personal recollection of? Because they are starved for holiness. I think this explains why so many young European women adapt the habib. They are misled into Islam because it does go against the secular mainstream.
    Young people are idealistic and impatient with half measures and luke-warmness.

    While I love the smells and bells as much as the next guy, they can be just externals. I mentioned that across the street from my hotel was a Mariavite chapel. It was so deceiving that my wife was attending services there until I got there and realized they were a beyond schismatic sect, probably with no valid Sacraments. But they sure had the smells and bells.
    Like I said last night, zealous young people get involved quickly but can burn out as soon as they see some hypocrisy or contradiction and leave not only the traditionalist group but the Church altogether.
    Let me just say that the authentic holiness you crave is indeed to be found in the one Church Christ founded. You will be left hungry in any and every form of Protestantism.

  25. PS,

    Eric W., if you really do believe , as you said last night, that heaven is the final blossoming of the seeds of holiness planted and cultivated in this life, you agree with session 6 of the Council of Trent.
    In this life we are adopted into the family of God and receive our full inheritance in the Beatific Vision.
    You spoke of Faith in your post last night. Just remember, Faith is a a mirror we see dimly into in this life. In death, all Faith falls away to actual vision. There will be no Faith in heaven. Only Charity, the Charity shed abroad in your heart at Baptism.
    That Charity can be lost by sin or apostasy. But it can be restored through the Sacrament of Reconciliation.
    Amen.

  26. Jim,
    I find your assessment of the young very accurate. Recently, someone told me that the one thing today’s youth value most is honesty. It was compared to former times when “can they get the job done” was more valued.

    I don’t think you see how you planted a time bomb in your own comments.

    You wrote:
    While I love the smells and bells as much as the next guy, they can be just externals.

    Response:
    Just externals ? Then the next guy can be just an external….or the schismatic sect……or traditionalist groups…..or the Mariavite chapel…You see where I’m going. Eventually, we will reach all valid sacraments and the one Church you think Christ founded. The only acceptable external will be the one you recognize.
    ———————-

    You wrote:
    Let me just say that the authentic holiness you crave is indeed to be found in the one Church Christ founded. You will be left hungry in any and every form of Protestantism.

    Response:
    This is the ecclesial loop. All isms leave us hungry and if authentic holiness is where you say it is, then praise God ! I received the fullness, so let’s have true fellowship if you are light.
    ———————

    You wrote:
    if you really do believe , as you said last night, that heaven is the final blossoming of the seeds of holiness planted and cultivated in this life, you agree with session 6 of the Council of Trent.

    Response:
    Sow to the Spirit to reap eternal life from the same Spirit. The words of Jesus are spirit and life. The flesh profits nothing, so I don’t dress myself with sacrament flesh robes that promise hidden graces. Don’t get me wrong, I dress myself but the dress doesn’t work ex opere operato* Christ in me is hope of glory ! He will dress me with glory because by His Spirit I cultivate holiness in this life. Eucharist worship isn’t part of the cultivation plan. How can it be ? Worship of a false god doesn’t cultivate holiness.

  27. De Maria, you wrote:
    Therefore, come out from that unbelieving Protestant sect and be united to Christ, in the Church, the House of the Living God, the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth.

    Response:
    Who calls me ? I can’t see you because you are not visible.

    But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light. – Eph. 5:13

    Darkness covers you because you can’t see the Church. I don’t forsake the gathering of saints. You are the master of oppression. That’s why your pillar of truth wrote this:

    As history shows, when a particular Church has sought to become self-sufficient, and has weakened its real communion with the universal Church and with its living and visible centre, its internal unity suffers too, and it finds itself in danger of losing its own freedom in the face of the various forces of slavery and exploitation

    http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_28051992_communionis-notio_en.html

    Your Roman affection-bond is the greatest force of slavery and exploitation found in history.

  28. ERIC W May 26, 2015 at 2:16 am
    De Maria,
    Your Roman affection-bond is the greatest force of slavery and exploitation found in history.

    You say that because you have no faith in Christ or in the Word of God.

    Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

  29. Jim I gotta ask how this is possible? Without the ( Ever ) Virgin Mary’s obedience “untying the knot tied by the virgin Eve’s disobedience”, how can you have a the of recapitulation?

    Let me borrow a definition of the recapitulation theory from that font of all knowledge, Wikipedia:

    “In the recapitulation view of the atonement, Christ is seen as the new Adam who succeeds where Adam failed. Christ undoes the wrong that Adam did and, because of his union with humanity, leads humankind on to eternal life (including moral perfection).”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recapitulation_theory_of_atonement

    Every single thing in that definition, except perhaps “union with humanity” since the Reformed hold that Christ is united only to the elect, is Reformed theology.

    Recapitulation refers to the reality that Christ repeats the life of Adam and succeeds where he fails. That is basic to federal theology as affirmed in the Reformed creeds and confessions. Now, the Reformed don’t take everything about the theory that Irenaeus said. We believe in true development in doctrine whereby you keep what is good, develop what is good, but shed what is bad. To be fair, Roman Catholicism sheds what it thinks is bad. Your doctrine of the papacy sheds the early church consensus that the only primacy that the bishop of Rome has is a primacy of honor.

    But in any case, you have recapitulation without Mary as the new Eve because the Bible never presents Mary as the new Eve. Insofar as there is a new Eve, it is the entire church because the church is the bride of Christ, the new Adam. But since the Bible doesn’t ever speak in such terms about the church being the new Eve, at least not directly, one doesn’t get much in referring to a new Eve.

    Mary is a relatively minor figure in the New Testament. We see her in the birth narratives, a little bit at the cross and the tomb, and then in the upper room at Pentecost, after which she disappears from the only verifiable Apostolic tradition that we possess. The important role in the New Testament is Christ as the new Adam, to which Paul explicitly refers him and to which the Gospels implicitly refer him in the temptation narratives. There’s no mention of a new Eve in either context.

    Apart from that, we see her at Cana, which is traditionally held by Rome to teach Mary’s mediatorship, but that’s an invalid interpretation. The servants don’t go to Mary and ask her to intercede with Jesus. She also appears in Mark where she is part of the family that thinks Jesus is a little bit off his rocker. There’s a tradition that she is the woman mentioned in the book of Revelation, but that is not an official Magisterial view. In fact, the US RC bishops have written that the woman represents Israel, not Mary.

    Mary doesn’t untie any knot of disobedience. To say such a thing is to make our salvation dependent on her, a mere creature, particularly when Rome doesn’t believe her “yes” was ordained. And Scripture doesn’t place the blame for the fall on Eve. Eve didn’t throw a monkeywrench into the works by her sin. It’s Adam’s acquiescence that gave us the mess that we are in. It’s Adam that has to undo the sin, not Eve, that’s why it is the new Adam, Christ, who does it. That’s the Apostolic teaching. Mary simply isn’t involved except insofar as she was ordained to be the one who gave birth to Christ. But it didn’t have to be Mary. It could have been any other faithful Jewish girl. There’s nothing particularly special about Mary in comparison to other women except her role; there were other women who were just as godly and therefore fit to bear the Messiah. Since Mary’s lifetime, there have been women who are every bit as godly as her and could have fulfilled the role. Same is true of every other figure in Scripture. Christ alone is the only one who could fulfill his particular role. Every other role from Moses to David to Mary to Peter to Paul could have been filled by anyone else God had chosen.

    In sum, the Reformed doctrine of the covenant of creation/works is a development of recapitulation as Irenaeus theorized. They are not identical, but they are in continuity. In both cases, Christ must succeed where Adam fell both in obeying the Lord and in resisting the Devil’s temptation.

  30. DeMaria said in response to Romans 5:10, we are saved by HIS life ” Which we receive in the Eucharist” Scripture teaches we receive Him by faith, and that verse teaches a believer that we have been reconciled already by His death and will be saved by HIS life. The merits of Christ are applied to us through faith alone. Contrary to meriting the merit of Christ in the Roman false religion. Rome made the comemoration and remembrance of the one sacrifice that saved us by faith into an OT sacrifice of a Priest in the re breaking of the Lord’s body which offers minimum benefit which depends on the disposition of the Priest and participant. The go out and do your part gospel. As you told me ” you better merit eternal life” . He isn’t an eternal victim who can’t get off the cross, He is Lord and Saviour who is risen in heaven. K

  31. Robert,

    There’s nothing particularly special about Mary in comparison to other women except her role; there were other women who were just as godly and therefore fit to bear the Messiah. Since Mary’s lifetime, there have been women who are every bit as godly as her and could have fulfilled the role.

    Their role is what make them important. God uses people as means. The people used are made for their role. And Mary’s role was to be the Mother of God. She held within her for 9 months the Creator of the Universe! She feed the Foundation of Reality from her breasts – potentially for several years. Thirty years of her life was spent in the very physical presence of God.

    When Catholics talk about Christians being able to fall away we get push back about being apart of God’s family. “How could a loving Father allow His children…”. All this lovely family language. We are brothers and sisters in Christ. Christ is our eldest brother, the first born of all of Creation. The first person of the Trinity is our Father. With all this family language, one must ask: who is our mother? Well, who is it? Or are you suggesting we don’t have one? That seems rather strange with all this talk of family. We are bring brought into God’s family, and guess what? The 2nd person of the Trinity became incarnate so that we could join the family, and He has a mother! That’s right, to be in God’s family, to be adopted into the family, to be brothers with Jesus, means that Mary is our mother.

  32. DeMaria said to Eric W ” you say that because you have no faith in Christ” Denial of the Catholic synagogue is ” no faith in Christ? Eric W has professed faith alone in the head Jesus. here is his confirmation ” If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe In your heart God raised Him from the dead you will be saved. Notice the immediate results , heart believing results in righteousness, mouth confessing results salvation. Don’t see your church mentioned there. You on the other hand confess Rome as Lord, and worship the death wafer idol. Who has true faith ? Hmm. K

  33. Why do you have to say this, “death wafer idol”?

    You should know by now how much pain this causes, why do you have to keep using it?

    Why?

    I want to know why you like to cause such pain?

    Why do you have to be so mean and abusive?

    Why can’t you control yourself?

    Is this what your wife begs of you?

    Does she say why over and over and over again?

    You need help.

  34. Lane said to Robert ” God uses people as means” Means to whSat? To preach the Gospel. To carry on His mission . But not as the agency of atonement, or a mediator of Grace, that belongs to Him uniquely, and the Spirit. Not to a sinner, she doesn’t qualify, and neither can you propitiate your sin or others. He was the only one qualified to live a perfect life and Dixie on a cross to pay for sin. The efficacy of that one sacrifice is infinite. 2 Corinthians 5:21 says He became sin, we became the righteousness of God in Him. Hebrews says it was so infinite, it perfected true believers, those trusting in Christ alone. Those who participate in a Mass or ascribe meditation of salvation to Mary or themselves will be spit out. Paul said ” they condemn themselves”. K

  35. Lane,
    It is the family aspect that those non-Catholic can’t abide by.

    I remember the specific instance in my life when I KNEW that our Holy Mother was now my Mother, when particular Saints became true friends, when the Holy Spirit visited me in a very profound anointing. It truly is a family in every way, and recently St. Joseph has had a very important part to play in my prayer life.

    A family that prays together, stays together.

  36. Debbie asked ” why do you have to say death wafer idol” Fair question. And yes the pain it caused people who yearned for it is awful. Francis of Assisi, Pio, and many others God inflicted with stigmata. The pictures are horrifying. Look at them. My wife supports my ministry to Catholics veiled and lost deep in The mire of supperstion and idolatry. Our hearts break for these people. Always working and never finding the truth. Debbie ill let a famous theologian define Romans bread worship to you, ” A diseased eagerness to seize upon something gratifying to that sensuous philosophy of the natural heart which delights even in the strange imagery that fills the inner chamber of supperstition , met the askings of the natural heart trained to superstitions. ” The supper is not a sacrifice. Christ applies not his flesh but his merits to us freely by faith. The only flesh that benefits us is the one once broken on the cross. And as true believers commemorate and remember the infinite efficacy obtained in one finished work at the consummation of the ages, a point in time. We are incorporated into His body thru the SPIRIT, not the flesh. We are called to a spiritual relationship with Him by faith alone, trusting His finished work alone. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and truth, his Word. Rome’s incarnationalism is idolatry, soundly rejected by the early father’s. We pray for you , lost in your supperstion and idolatry, lost in works righteousness, that you and your family will believe the gospel and Revelation 18:4 come out from her my people. ” God bless k

  37. Debbie said ” I remember the specific instance in my life when the holly mother became my mother” My wife said to me , do Catholic women understand how they wound Christ, going to his mother. He said ” come unto ME all ye with heavy burden and I will give you breast” God by nature is gracious, loving, kind, a savior. Yet your church has made Christ the angry one, transcendent, and Mary the one who says come unto me. Here is how it works in Romanism. God the Father is transcendent, always angry, Jesus too, and so you go to Mary and she gets on his case. This cuts at the very heart of Christ as the only comforter and counselor, who is gracious by nature, loving. Debbie, my wife is right, you wound Christ. And the Mary of scripture, who hasn’t heard a prayer since the day she died, would be ashamed of her RC portrayal. K

  38. Should be I will give you rest, not breast, although He certainly embraces us acceptingly.

  39. Lane,

    Their role is what make them important.

    Sure.

    God uses people as means. The people used are made for their role. And Mary’s role was to be the Mother of God. She held within her for 9 months the Creator of the Universe! She feed the Foundation of Reality from her breasts – potentially for several years. Thirty years of her life was spent in the very physical presence of God.

    Sure. And the bolded portion is my point. The issue is that the way at least some RCs talk, it is as if God could not have made anyone else for the role than Mary. That’s what I’m objecting to.

    When Catholics talk about Christians being able to fall away we get push back about being apart of God’s family. “How could a loving Father allow His children…”. All this lovely family language. We are brothers and sisters in Christ. Christ is our eldest brother, the first born of all of Creation. The first person of the Trinity is our Father. With all this family language, one must ask: who is our mother? Well, who is it?

    Who is our mother? The church. He cannot have God as His Father who does not have the church as His mother. Cyprian said it. Calvin said it. The other great theologians of church history have said it.

    Or are you suggesting we don’t have one? That seems rather strange with all this talk of family.

    We do have a mother, the church. And I’m happy to have Mary as my mother in the faith. But she is no more my mother in the faith than my own Christian mother is, than all the lovely ladies who taught me in Sunday school are, etc. etc.

    We are bring brought into God’s family, and guess what? The 2nd person of the Trinity became incarnate so that we could join the family, and He has a mother! That’s right, to be in God’s family, to be adopted into the family, to be brothers with Jesus, means that Mary is our mother.

    Mary is never said to be the mother of the church in Scripture. Further, Mary is part of the bride of Christ. So if being in Christ means that Mary is our mother, then she is our spouse as well. But nobody says that. Why? It’s because we recognize the limits to the metaphor.

    Jesus never tells us to take Mary as our mother. He does tell us to take God as our Father. Mary’s as much my mother in the faith as any other godly Christian woman.

  40. +JMJ+

    Eric W wrote:

    Will you come to me? I’m light in the Lord.

    I received the fullness … [of] light.

    If this is meant in an extra-forensic way (and such is the vibe which I’ve been getting from you for a long time now), then this might explain why many posters here seem to be having a hard time approaching your thoughts. They’re dialoguing with you as if with a Magisterial Reformationalist, rather than as with a Radical Reformationalist/Anabaptist.

  41. Robert,

    Mary is never said to be the mother of the church in Scripture.

    Eve is the mother of the spiritually dead. Mary is the mother of the spiritually living. The women in Rev 12, sounds very much like Mary (and also Israel and the Church – all 3) and we are her offspring:

    Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea. (Revelation 12:17 ESV)

    Jesus never tells us to take Mary as our mother.

    Well, except here:

    When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home. (John 19:26-27 ESV)

    It’s because we recognize the limits to the metaphor.

    There is no metaphor here. Mary IS the Mother of God. We ARE being members of God’s family. These aren’t the metaphors.

  42. typos…
    “The [woman ]in Rev 12…”
    “We ARE becoming members of God’s family.”

  43. Wosbald, you wrote:
    They’re dialoguing with you as if with a Magisterial Reformationalist, rather than as with a Radical Reformationalist/Anabaptist.

    That could be it. Infant baptism and motives of credibility are inseparable. Get’em early to make them ready for their debut. It’s an indispensable way for the visible universal church to keep self-perpetuating.

  44. Lane, you write:

    When Catholics talk about Christians being able to fall away we get push back about being apart of God’s family. “How could a loving Father allow His children…”.

    You make a good point, and I was thinking about how Robert and Eric always fall back on this bogus line of reasoning. In effect, the Protestants are making up their own parables about a father’s relationship to his rebellious children so that they can preserve their false OSAS doctrines. The OSAS Protestants do this because they cannot accept what is actually taught in the Sacred Scriptures.

    “For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.”
    Leviticus 20:9
    .
    “If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.”
    Deuteronomy 21:18-21

    Why would God give these commandments to the Jews if what God really wanted to teach is that rebellious children can never be lost? God is commanding that a rebellious son be put to death for crying out loud! Which is what the Jews who were listening to the story of the prodigal son expected to hear from Jesus, and why the whole point of the story of the prodigal son is about a rebellious son that repented of his mortal sins that had caused him to become dead.

    It was fitting to make merry and be glad, for this your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found.
    Luke 15:32
    .
    I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.
    Luke 15:7

    OSAS believing Protestants are simply denying what the Sacred Scriptures teach about unrepentant rebellious sons. The unrepentant rebellious sons are already dead, and because they are dead, they will suffer the second death in the lake of fire unless they repent of their rebellion.

    Schism is mortal sin. The Protestant “Reformers” were all sons that rebelled against the Father.

  45. Debbie,

    Can you handle false god instead of “death wafer idol ?”

    Here’s a reason why I don’t accept your Eucharist:

    1. This is my body.

    2. This is the body of the one who said, “This is my body.”

    If they mean the same thing, then a change of substance must exclude a priest who says it. Why ? It’s not the body of the Priest who said the words. Transub and Jesus must stay together. Can you see why the priest is a false christ if he’s “another christ ?”

  46. This is My Body —
    Eucharistic Consecration and Transubstantiation

    by St. Ambrose of Milan
    Early Church Father & Doctor of the Church

    While the word “transubstantiation” is not employed here, the substance of this doctrine of Christ’s real presence in the Eucharist is evident in this passage from St. Ambrose’s treatise On the Mysteries (Nn. 52-54. 58: SC 25 bis, 186-188. 190) dating back to about 380 AD. Used in the Roman Office of Readings on Saturday of the 15th week in ordinary time, this excerpt explains the power of the words of Eucharistic consecration (a.k.a “the words of institution”). St. Ambrose, bishop of Milan who baptized St. Augustine, is one of the most important of the Early Church Fathers.

    We see that grace can accomplish more than nature, yet so far we have been considering instances of what grace can do through a prophet’s blessing. If the blessing of a human being had power even to change nature, what do we say of God’s action in the consecration itself, in which the very words of the Lord and Savior are effective? If the words of Elijah had power even to bring down fire from heaven, will not the words of Christ have power to change the natures of the elements? You have read that in the creation of the words of Christ have power to change the natures of the elements? You have read that in the creation of the whole world he spoke and they came to be; he commanded and they were created. If Christ could by speaking create out of nothing what did not yet exist, can we say that his words are unable to change existing things into something they previously were not? It is no lesser feat to create new natures for things than to change their existing natures.

    What need is there for argumentation? Let us take what happened in the case of Christ himself and construct the truth of this mystery from the mystery of the incarnation. Did the birth of the Lord Jesus from Mary come about in the course of nature? If we look at nature we regularly find that conception results from the union of man and women. It is clear then that the conception by the Virgin was above and beyond the course of nature. And this body that we make present is the body born of the Virgin. Why do you expect to find in this case that nature takes its ordinary course in regard to the body of Christ when the Lord himself was born of the Virgin in a manner above and beyond the order of nature? This is indeed the true flesh of Christ, which was crucified and buried. This is then in truth the sacrament of his flesh.

    The Lord Jesus himself declares: This is my body. Before the blessing contained in these words a different thing is named; after the consecration a body is indicated. He himself speaks of his blood. Before the consecration something else is spoken of; after the consecration blood is designated. And you say: “Amen”, that is: “It is true”. What the mouth utters, let the mind within acknowledge; what the word says, let the heart ratify.

    So the Church, in response to grace so great, exhorts her children, exhorts her neighbors, to hasten to these mysteries: Neighbors, she says, come and eat; brethren, drink and be filled. In another passage the Holy Spirit has made clear to you what you are to eat, what you are to drink. Taste, the prophet says, and see that the Lord is good; blessed is the man who puts his trust in him. Christ is in that sacrament, for it is the body of Christ. It is therefore not bodily food but spiritual. Thus the Apostle too says, speaking of its symbol: Our fathers ate spiritual food and drank spiritual drink. For the body of God is spiritual; the body of Christ is that of a divine spirit, for Christ is a spirit. We read: The spirit before our face is Christ the Lord. And in the letter of Saint Peter we have this: Christ died for you. Finally, it is this food that gives strength to our hearts, this drink which gives joy to the heart of man, as the prophet has written.

    For more readings from the Fathers on the Real Presence of Christ’s Body and Blood in the Eucharist, see also:
    Sunday Eucharist in the Early Church, Saint Justin Martyr
    Eucharist as a Pledge of Resurrection by Saint Irenaeus
    Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist by Saint Cyril of Jerusalem

  47. PS Eric W.

    Thank you, yes I can handle false god.

    I truly understand that you don’t accept it, but to desecrate it can only come from the evil one.

  48. De Maria, you wrote:
    You say that because you have no faith in Christ or in the Word of God.

    Response:
    The papacy must defend the visible universal church. It’s the only environment for it to live and thrive. Slavery and exploitation of “particular churches” begins with the universal. It’s a way for the papacy to lay an agreeable foundation for authoritative disagreeableness. Quote Matt. 16 all day. It doesn’t matter because Christ is the Rock. Didn’t the Apostles lay a foundation ? Was it Peter or Jesus ?

    For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. – 1Cor. 3:11

    But you want us to think that Jesus picked Peter, and not himself. What’s good for the Apostles is good for the Christ.
    ——————————-

    Look at your own self-tyranny. It’s not enough to be named after your local Christians. No way. Here’s the real deal….

    Christian is my name and Catholic my surname.

    I wonder if it’s univocal or analogical. I wonder if it’s Catholic or fully Catholic.

  49. Debbie, you quoted:
    The Lord Jesus himself declares: This is my body. Before the blessing contained in these words a different thing is named; after the consecration a body is indicated…..

    Response:
    Focus on “a body is indicated”. Who ? The answer is Jesus because Jesus himself declared. Where’s Jesus now ? In heaven and not on earth saying, ” This is my body.” Then who, pray tell, is declaring, “MY body ?” Liars call themselves another christ when Jesus is in heaven.

  50. Lane,

    The US Council of Catholic Bishops do not read Revelation 12 as referring to Mary. So while I suppose that reading is allowable by Rome, it is certainly not dogmatically defined.

    But in any case, the person who is told to take Mary as his mother is John. Not you. Not me. Not anyone else.

    There is no metaphor here. Mary IS the Mother of God. We ARE being members of God’s family. These aren’t the metaphors.

    There are metaphors here. The Bible says that the church is the bride of Christ, but I don’t have a marriage certificate, etc. We are members of God’s family. Mary is the mother of God according to His humanity, not His deity. According to HIs divine nature, Christ has no mother. He only has a Father.

    But in any case, Mary is Jesus’ mother, not mine, at least not any more than my own godly mother is.

    The role that Mary has in non-Protestant Christian communions is not justifiable. It’s excess and its idolatrous. It can be supported only by the most tendentious exegesis. Traditional Marian exegesis is so bad that even large segments of the infallible Magisterium, such as the USCCB don’t recognize passages such as Revelation 12 as having anything to do with Mary.

    You’ve been sold a bill of goods, my friend. It saddens me to say it.

  51. Eric W.,

    You are reading a quote from a Doctor of the Catholic Church from 300 A.D.

    He is a not only a Priest, but a Bishop of the Catholic Church, the Church that all Christians called home.

    You need to focus on this fact and that the Eucharist had been celebrated by the office of the Priesthood for 300 years. You can not look at it from any other view except that of the understanding of the Holy Catholic Church since its inception by our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. He is the one who instituted the Holy Eucharist.

    So to pick out words and phrases and want to dispute them with the mind of a 21st century believer in Protestanism is a pretty silly idea, considering no true believer at that time this was written would understand you.

    You have to start with their belief and then make an argument against what they already believed and had been practicing for 300 years.

    And for every argument you want to throw at the Eucharist, believe me, it has already been said and answered.

  52. Mateo,

    You make a good point, and I was thinking about how Robert and Eric always fall back on this bogus line of reasoning. In effect, the Protestants are making up their own parables about a father’s relationship to his rebellious children so that they can preserve their false OSAS doctrines. The OSAS Protestants do this because they cannot accept what is actually taught in the Sacred Scriptures.

    No, we believe in an eternal Father, strong to save. Not a simpering weakling who can do nothing but wait around and hope for someone to return. No, the Father goes out to the lost sheep and brings him back. He doesn’t go out and say, “here sheepy, sheepy, sheepy” and hope that they will come back.

  53. Debbie, you wrote:
    You have to start with their belief and then make an argument against what they already believed and had been practicing for 300 years.

    Response:
    This is a typical RC response. Why are you dictating the terms of MY argument ? The words of consecration pre-date any so-called belief (except the Apostles). I went to the source. Just say you can’t handle my reason for unbelief. By the way, my reason for unbelief doesn’t necessarily exclude a transub belief at the first Lord’s Supper. I’m only challenging subsequent non-Jesus consecrations.

  54. One last thought for today on the Eucharist.

    People act like this is a new invention.

    It was what was celebrated for 1500 years throughout Christendom without fail.

    Martin Luther was Fr. Luther who celebrated the Sacrament of the Eucharist.

    The reformation was not about the Eucharist.

    It was never about the Holy Eucharist.

  55. “I’m only challenging subsequent non-Jesus consecrations.”

    Oh, I didn’t realize this.

    So you believe in the first Eucharistic Supper with Jesus consecrating the bread and wine into His actual Body and Blood?

  56. Debbie,

    People act like this is a new invention.
    It was what was celebrated for 1500 years throughout Christendom without fail.

    Sure it was. The question is what the church believed for 1500 years about the presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Both Luther and Calvin affirmed the real presence. They just denied transubstantiation. That’s because transubstantiation was a later invention dependent on Aristotle, not on the Apostolic witness.

  57. “But in any case, the person who is told to take Mary as his mother is John. Not you. Not me. Not anyone else.”

    By this logic, everything and anything Christ said to certain persons or audiences only applies to them and not other believers/generations.

  58. Ah, Robert,

    You’re treading into unknown waters.

    What is it that you believe today? What did you celebrate this past Sunday, the Sunday that commorates Pentecost?

    And 2nd question, do you believe that at the night of the Last Supper the Apostles received the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ?

    Eric W. separates it out, what about you?

  59. James,

    By this logic, everything and anything Christ said to certain persons or audiences only applies to them and not other believers/generations.

    No, James. What it means is that there has to be a compelling reason to believe Jesus’ giving Mary to John was anything other than Jesus’ giving Mary to John.

  60. Debbie,

    What is it that you believe today?

    That Jesus is present when I receive the Eucharist.

    What did you celebrate this past Sunday, the Sunday that commorates Pentecost?

    The outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

    And 2nd question, do you believe that at the night of the Last Supper the Apostles received the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ?

    Actually, I believe that they ate and drank with our Lord in His presence. They fed on Him and His teaching. It’s not a whole lot different than what happens now; we just don’t see Jesus with our eyes but with the eyes of faith.

  61. Debbie, you asked:
    So you believe in the first Eucharistic Supper with Jesus consecrating the bread and wine into His actual Body and Blood?

    No. I take “is” to mean symbolize, signify, represent etc.
    ————————-

    You wrote:
    Eric W. separates it out, what about you?

    Response:
    I don’t argue against transub belief for the first supper. I let transub believers make a positive argument that the Apostles believed it. It’s not easy to make a biblical argument.

  62. Robert,

    No, James. What it means is that there has to be a compelling reason to believe Jesus’ giving Mary to John was anything other than Jesus’ giving Mary to John.

    You make it sound so mundane! Nothing Christ is recorded saying or doing in scripture is mundane, especially done from the cross! Look at the words He uses, “Woman, behold, your son!” Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” , seriously, why does He sound so emphatic! Why didn’t He just say “Hey John, look after her,” if that’s what He really meant. But why would Jesus be worried about anything like this while on the cross?

    It is times like this that I’m thankful for not being raised with any Protestant biases.

  63. ROBERT May 26, 2015 at 12:16 pm
    Mateo,

    No, we believe in an eternal Father, strong to save. Not a simpering weakling who can do nothing but wait around and hope for someone to return. No, the Father goes out to the lost sheep and brings him back. He doesn’t go out and say, “here sheepy, sheepy, sheepy” and hope that they will come back.

    What do you think of the father in the parable of the Prodigal Son? He didn’t go out and bring the son back. He waited until the son returned.

    Did the Father in the Prodigal Son represent God the Father? Or not? Here, let me remind you how the Parable goes:

    Luke 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

    11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:

    12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.

    13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.

    14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.

    15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.

    16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.

    17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father’s have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!

    18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

    19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

    20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

    21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.

    22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:

    23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:

    24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

    Is this an example of a simpering, weakling father? Or does this father represent God the Father’s attitude towards his sinful children?

  64. Lane, wow! Woman behold your son, son behold your mother. I can see where you get Queen of heaven, mediatrix of all graces now. Took me the longest time to see this. All along I thought Jesus told them to look out for each other. You know Lane when Jesus said , come unto Me all of heavy burden, that phrase really means worship the my mother. K

  65. ROBERT May 26, 2015 at 12:14 pm
    Lane,
    The US Council of Catholic Bishops do not read Revelation 12 as referring to Mary. So while I suppose that reading is allowable by Rome, it is certainly not dogmatically defined.

    The Catholic Church doesn’t define Doctrines unless they are challenged or unless there is a controversy in the Church. Since most Catholics agree with this Doctrine, there is no reason for the Church to emphasize the Teaching.

  66. Robert, Eric W, Debbie loves her idolatries. She is right at home with her superstitions and scapular. Rome is the perfect place for the pagan magic show. When challenged, they all say the same thing to justify their golden calfsthey’ve been doing it for 1500 years. Augustine said ” understand spirituality what I tell you, you ARE NOT to eat of this body which you see, nor drink the blood that has been poured out from his side.” Transubstantiation is idolatry rubber stamped in 12th century. Aquinas. Gave us bowing to bread and wine, and a man is predestined in some way according to his merit, instead of just the goodness of God. K

  67. Hey all non-Catholics

    I’m curious, how many of you have been baptized with water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?

  68. De Maria wrote:
    The Catholic Church doesn’t define Doctrines unless they are challenged or unless there is a controversy in the Church. Since most Catholics agree with this Doctrine, there is no reason for the Church to emphasize the Teaching.

    Response:
    Don’t be deceived by his use of “agree.” It has no authority for an individual catholic. Please notice something very interesting. What about the possibility that the “agree” is actually a universal error ? Most Catholics might agree on what’s in fact a universal error. But who knows if this is the case ? If the Doctrine/Teaching, especially in unwritten tradition, isn’t defined, then how does everyone know its really being challenged ? Controversy is controversy, so it doesn’t really matter what the issues are.

    De Maria gets to have an out because Rev. 12 is part of written tradition. It comes from the beginning and doesn’t have the same problems as unwritten tradition.

  69. Debbie said ” people act like this is a new invention” You have been shown a thousand times transubstantiaion is an invention OF the twelfth century. God sent stigmata on Francis Assisi for lusting after his idol, and many others. Marching the bread God in the streets, adoring chapels. But it’s a funeral march and graven bread. You cannot put a piece of bread up in the place of the savior. And every wayward theologian that taught it is an idolatry. Christ isn’t in the bread, but the one taking the bread. We are nourished in faith. K

  70. Debbie,
    I was baptized that way at 10yr. old.

  71. How could Mary be the mother of the church when the church is the bride of Christ. Did she conceive His bride too? She can only be the mothinlaw. It’s just always one big perversion in Rome. Amazing. K

  72. Best thing I’ve heard all day,

    “And every wayward theologian that taught it is an idolatry. ”

    Amen.

  73. Eric W.,

    Thanks.

    “And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Matt 28;18-20

  74. Debbie,

    Thx for confirmation from the written tradition. It make me proud when you confess that Christ alone is the head of the church. Do you remember that slip up you made ? Those were the Good ol’ Days !

  75. John MacArthur baptized me that way after God called me , regenerated me through the Washing of the Word by His Spirit. I professed faith and was baptized.

  76. Debbie, you asked why I must say such hurtful things like ” death wafer idol” here is the thing. If transubstantiation is idolatry, then think how hurtful it is to Christ to give worship to a piece of bread. Christ’s body is in heaven. Augustine said the church have been deprived of the body of Christ until He returns. My intention isn’t to hurt, it’s to speak the truth. Truly every time you attend that Mass you eat what will be to you a death wafer. I say quit bowing to bread and wine, look up to heaven where Christ is in faith alone, trust in his finished one time sacrifice, and He will be with you spirituality in the supper. The the super will become a celebration of the one offering that put sin away for good. And the works that come from trusting in Christ alone will be a sweet aroma to God. K

  77. Fred,

    I remember hearing him on radio many moons ago. I really like him and the first book I read was Vanishing Conscience.

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Vanishing-Conscience-John-MacArthur/dp/0785271813

  78. Fred wrote:
    My intention isn’t to hurt, it’s to speak the truth.

    I’m hurt if you don’t speak the truth. You are screwed either way.

  79. FRED May 26, 2015 at 3:35 pm
    How could Mary be the mother of the church when the church is the bride of Christ. Did she conceive His bride too? She can only be the mothinlaw. It’s just always one big perversion in Rome. Amazing. K

    Have you ever heard that you are married to Jesus Christ? Listen to the Apostle:

    Romans 7:4
    Wherefore, my brethren,

    Therefore, my brothers

    ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

    You are married to the one who was raised from the dead

    Jesus is a man. And you are a man.

    Have you not also read in Scripture:

    1 Corinthians 2:14
    But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:

    That’s you. You don’t receive the Teachings of Jesus Christ because you’re a natural man. You consider them perversions.

    for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    But we do understand them, because we understand the spiritual nature of the Doctrines of Jesus Christ.

  80. “I say quit bowing to bread and wine”

    I say quit beating your wife.

  81. Lane, you write:

    You make it sound so mundane! Nothing Christ is recorded saying or doing in scripture is mundane, especially done from the cross! Look at the words He uses, “Woman, behold, your son!” Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” , seriously, why does He sound so emphatic! Why didn’t He just say “Hey John, look after her,” if that’s what He really meant.

    “Woman” – a reference to Mary as the new Eve, of course. Now why, exactly, would Jesus be saying to John to “Behold, your mother”, especially since the actual birth mother of John, the son of Zebedee, was still alive and watching Jesus die on the Cross?

    When the centurion and those who were with him, keeping watch over Jesus, saw the earthquake and what took place, they were filled with awe, and said, “Truly this was the Son of God!” There were also many women there, looking on from afar, who had followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering to him; among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.
    Matthew 27:54-56

  82. ROBERT May 26, 2015 at 1:23 pm
    James,
    By this logic, everything and anything Christ said to certain persons or audiences only applies to them and not other believers/generations.
    No, James. What it means is that there has to be a compelling reason to believe Jesus’ giving Mary to John was anything other than Jesus’ giving Mary to John.

    Jesus gave Mary to the Beloved Disciple. Are you a beloved disciple?

    John 19:26 When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to her, “Woman, here is your son,” 27 and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.

  83. Lane,

    There’s nothing emphatic there. It’s economy of language. “John, here is your mother. Take care of her now. Mary, John is your son. Look to him to take care of you in my absence.”

    Rome mangles this passage like it does so many others. There’s nothing in Scripture about Mary being the new Eve. There’s nothing about her being the mother in the church. She just doesn’t have any importance to the Apostles except as the mother of Christ, a role that God could have chosen anyone else for. She’s not seen as an intercessor. She’s not the Queen of Heaven. She disappears quite early in the biblical narrative.

  84. “The Lord Jesus wanted those whose eyes were held lest they should recognize Him, to recognize Him in the breaking of the bread. The faithful know what I am saying. They know Christ in the breaking of the bread. For not all bread, but only that which receives the blessing of Christ, becomes Christ’s body.” St. Augustine

    “And he was carried in his own hands.” But, brethren, how is it possible for a man to do this? Who can understand it? Who is it that is carried in his own hands? A man can be carried in the hands of another; but no one can be carried in his own hands. How this should be understood literally of David, we cannot discover; but we can discover how it is meant of Christ. For Christ was carried in His own hands, when, referring to His own Body, He said: “This is My Body.” For He carried that Body in His hands.” St. Augustine

    “You ought to know what you have received, what you are going to receive, and what you ought to receive daily. That Bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the Body of Christ. The chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the Blood of Christ.” St. Augustine

    “He who made you men, for your sakes was Himself made man; to ensure your adoption as many sons into an everlasting inheritance, the blood of the Only-Begotten has been shed for you. If in your own reckoning you have held yourselves cheap because of your earthly frailty, now assess yourselves by the price paid for you; meditate, as you should, upon what you eat, what you drink, to what you answer ‘Amen’ “. St. Augustine

    “For the whole Church observes this practice which was handed down by the Fathers: that it prayers for those who have died in the communion of the Body and Blood of Christ, when they are commemorated in their own place in the sacrifice itself; and the sacrifice is offered also in memory of them on their behalf.”
    St. Augustine

    “The fact that our fathers of old offered sacrifices with beasts for victims, which the present-day people of God read about but do not do, is to be understood in no way but this: that those things signified the things that we do in order to draw near to God and to recommend to our neighbor the same purpose. A visible sacrifice, therefore, is the sacrament, that is to say, the sacred sign, of an invisible sacrifice… . Christ is both the Priest, offering Himself, and Himself the Victim. He willed that the sacramental sign of this should be the daily sacrifice of the Church, who, since the Church is His body and He the Head, learns to offer herself through Him.” St. Augustine

  85. ROBERT May 26, 2015 at 5:08 pm
    Lane,
    There’s nothing emphatic there. It’s economy of language. “John, here is your mother. Take care of her now. Mary, John is your son. Look to him to take care of you in my absence.”

    St. John didn’t use the name John in that verse. He speaks of the “disciple whom Jesus loves”.

    Robert, are you a disciple whom Jesus loves? Yes or no?

    John 19:26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! 27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

  86. ROBERT May 26, 2015 at 5:08 pm
    Lane,
    ….There’s nothing about her being the mother in the church. She just doesn’t have any importance to the Apostles except as the mother of Christ, a role that God could have chosen anyone else for. She’s not seen as an intercessor. She’s not the Queen of Heaven. She disappears quite early in the biblical narrative.

    Only to those who are not disciples whom Jesus loves and who don’t keep the Commandments nor the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    For those of us who do, Mary is our Mother as Jesus appointed her to be.

  87. Robert wrote:
    …It’s economy of language….

    Well said.

  88. Debbie,

    Do this in memory of me. Do what ? Be Jesus Christ, right ? MY body…MY blood…they speak truth. Your Priest at mass is Jesus Christ. The Priest must be Jesus Christ because St. Augustine said:

    He said: “This is My Body.” For He carried that Body in His hands.”

    The hands of the Priest are the hands of Jesus Christ.
    —————————–

    “For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. – Matt. 24:5

    You say you love the Bible. Please read it carefully. Ask them by what name do they serve at the Altar. Then ask them if they say these words: MY body….MY blood…Be not afraid. If they say yes, then ask them plainly, ” Are you Christ.” Press on. If they say no, then ask them how much truth is in that spoken MY.

    You may find out how much Protestant is in them. I meant to say Antichrist.

  89. ERIC W May 27, 2015 at 1:34 am
    —————————–
    “For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. – Matt. 24:5

    And the Bible also says:

    2 Corinthians 5:20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

    Catholic Priests are ambassadors for Christ who pray for you in Christ’s stead as the Bible describes.

    You say you love the Bible.

    So do you. Let’s press and see who truly loves the Bible and who loves to twist the Word of God in order to pervert the Doctrines of our Lord.

    Please read it carefully.

    I do. That is why I can showcase your errors and lies.

    Ask them by what name do they serve at the Altar.

    By the same name that the Church has always served. In the name of Christ.

    1 Corinthians 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, ….
    1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    Ephesians 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
    2 Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,….

    Then ask them if they say these words: MY body….MY blood…Be not afraid. If they say yes, then ask them plainly, ” Are you Christ.”

    And they will answer, “Christ says that we are His Body!”

    But you don’t believe. You don’t believe the Word of God and you want to insinuate into us your doubts. But we believe what God has taught us through His Church in Scripture and Tradition.

    Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

    None of you are Christ, because none of you are of Him. Therefore, you condemn yourselves by your own words.

    Press on. If they say no, then ask them how much truth is in that spoken MY.

    Certainly, let’s press on. For the Scripture says:

    Romans 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, ….

    So, therefore, we believe that it is absolutely true, that MY refers to us. Not only to our Priests who are to us, “in persona Christi”, but also to the rest of us, because, and it is obvious that you did not know, we IMITATE CHRIST. Yeah, we offer ourselves to God as Jesus Christ did. The Eucharist is not just the Body of Christ, but the grains of wheat represent US. The water poured into the cup, represents us.

    When we offer the Body of Christ to God the Father in the Eucharistic Sacrifice, we offer ourselves as well.

    1331 Holy Communion, because by this sacrament we unite ourselves to Christ, who makes us sharers in his Body and Blood to form a single body.151 We also call it: the holy things (ta hagia; sancta)152 – the first meaning of the phrase “communion of saints” in the Apostles’ Creed – the bread of angels, bread from heaven, medicine of immortality,153 viaticum. . . .

    1368 The Eucharist is also the sacrifice of the Church. The Church which is the Body of Christ participates in the offering of her Head. With him, she herself is offered whole and entire. She unites herself to his intercession with the Father for all men. In the Eucharist the sacrifice of Christ becomes also the sacrifice of the members of his Body. The lives of the faithful, their praise, sufferings, prayer, and work, are united with those of Christ and with his total offering, and so acquire a new value. Christ’s sacrifice present on the altar makes it possible for all generations of Christians to be united with his offering.

    Did you not read in Scripture…
    1 Corinthians 10:17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: ….

    Yeah, when we offer the Eucharist, ourselves, we who are united in Christ, offer ourselves to God. But you wouldn’t know that.

    1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    You may find out how much Protestant is in them. I meant to say Antichrist.

    You are right in using the word “Protestant” and “Antichrist” interchangeably. They are synonyms.

  90. Eric W.,

    I really can’t add much to what De Maria has so gracious written.

    After re-reading your comments several times I am trying to ascertain what it is exactly you are saying.

    It seems to me that you actually believe that the Priesthood is crucial to the Church, to the Sacramental Ministry, but that you think most Priest do not live out their vocation of Holy Orders as they should?

    None of us is worthy, but through His Kindness, His Faithfulness and His Mercy, we are His people. It is especially in our sinfulness that He comes to us. His Mercy endures forever – the gates of hell will not prevail for our Redeemer is Eternal. He sits at the right hand of the Father to intercede for us AND to commune with us in fullness in, through and with His Body, the Church. He is head of the Body, the firstborn from the dead so that in all things He might have supremacy.

    This is the Good News.

    Now, I get how it works beautifully in Heaven. But how do you do this with sinful humanity that isn’t in heaven? Quite a tall order and it is imperative to understand and appreciate the patience of God’s providence through Salvation History. God working through humans to grace us. No man is an island, it is never about us. WE are His Body.

    1590 St. Paul said to his disciple Timothy: “I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands” (2 Tim 1:6), and “If any one aspires to the office of bishop, he desires a noble task.” (1 Tim 3:1) To Titus he said: “This is why I left you in Crete, that you amend what was defective, and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you” (Titus 1:5).

    1591 The whole Church is a priestly people. Through Baptism all the faithful share in the priesthood of Christ. This participation is called the “common priesthood of the faithful.” Based on this common priesthood and ordered to its service, there exists another participation in the mission of Christ: the ministry conferred by the sacrament of Holy Orders, where the task is to serve in the name and in the person of Christ the Head in the midst of the community.

    1592 The ministerial priesthood differs in essence from the common priesthood of the faithful because it confers a sacred power for the service of the faithful. The ordained ministers exercise their service for the People of God by teaching (munus docendi), divine worship (munus liturgicum) and pastoral governance (munus regendi).

    1593 Since the beginning, the ordained ministry has been conferred and exercised in three degrees: that of bishops, that of presbyters, and that of deacons. The ministries conferred by ordination are irreplaceable for the organic structure of the Church: without the bishop, presbyters, and deacons, one cannot speak of the Church (cf. St. Ignatius of Antioch, Ad Trall. 3,1).

  91. For those interested in the truth of the early church and how they meticulously maintained their categories , seeTim Kauffmans blog and one fold blog. Their work on the early father’s is the best. What you will find is bread was never offered to God, only men, and only praise and thanksgiving offered to God, consistent with NT sacrifices. Hebrews is clear and cannot be refuted, He offered himself once and it put sin away. Hebrews 10:18 ” There remains NO more sacrifices for sin.” Against the Romish church and it’s idolatry of transubstantiation , an invention of the human brain. Let Him off the cross Catholics, HE IS RISEN!!!!!!! K

  92. Debbie said ” through and with hisbody. ” True Christians are the body of Chriist, the physical representation of Christ. Paul uses church as a metaphor for the body of Christ. We are incorporated into His body thru the SPIRIT , NOT THE FLESH. We are the temple of God, not a physical building. God doesn’t dwell in buildings anymore. The Temple was destroyed. You still reside in a synagogue offering OT type sacrifices from Priests who die. And you re under the penalty of the law, in your meritocracy. The gospel isn’t go out and do your part. It is repent and believe. K

  93. Catholics, listen carefully. Churches don’t connect us to God. He comes to us in the gospel by and how He chooses. Sometimes that’s in the church, and sometimes outside. The church isn’t the same as Jesus in the world. No church owns God. Churches aren’t continuing incarnations. The church can’t usurp his uniquely finished work as the agency of salvation. It can only carry out his mission, obey Him, imitate Him, but it can’t substitute itself for Christ. Rome isn’t the historical natural body of Christ. His body is in heaven, where He rules His true church, those trusting in Christ alone. Catholics, Revelation 18:4 is calling you out of the Roman Synagogue to the gospel. Be saved from your idolatries and works righteousness. Love Kevin

  94. MYSTICAL
    having a spiritual meaning that is difficult to see or understand

    Mystical Body of Christ
    http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061943_mystici-corporis-christi.html

  95. FRED May 27, 2015 at 6:53 am
    For those interested in the truth of the early church and how they meticulously maintained their categories , seeTim Kauffmans blog and one fold blog. ….

    For those interested in the truth, that’s the last place they should go. If you’re interested in the truth of the early Church, go to staycatholic.com

    Hebrews is clear and cannot be refuted,

    That is true. Keep reading.

    Hebrews 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

    Oh look! A description of baptism which says that when we are washed with pure water we are actually washed in Christ’s blood.

    But I actually wanted to show you what follows:

    25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together

    We call that the Mass. He says, don’t neglect to meet together for the Mass. Why? He’ll tell us next.

    as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
    26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

    Because neglecting to meet together for the Mass is the same thing as rejecting Christ’s sacrifice. It amounts to a deliberate sin against Christ.

    This is why missing the Mass is considered a mortal sin in the Catholic Church. Now, you see that you reject the Mass, wilfully and therefore, can you be saved? It is a very grave sin.

    27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

    Those who miss the Mass are considered God’s enemies.

    28 A man who refused to obey the laws given by Moses was killed without mercy if there were two or three witnesses to his sin. 29 Think how much more terrible the punishment will be for those who have trampled underfoot the Son of God and treated his cleansing blood as though it were common and unhallowed,

    Why is missing the Mass considered to be a trampling underfoot of the Son of God? Why is it considered to be an insult to the cleansing blood of Christ?

    Let’s cross reference with 1 Cor 11:27 So if anyone eats this bread and drinks from this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, he is guilty of sin against the body and the blood of the Lord. 28 That is why a man should examine himself carefully before eating the bread and drinking from the cup. 29 For if he eats the bread and drinks from the cup unworthily, not thinking about the body of Christ and what it means, he is eating and drinking God’s judgment upon himself; for he is trifling with the death of Christ. 30 That is why many of you are weak and sick, and some have even died.

    and insulted and outraged the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to his people.

    It is such a wicked sin that St. Paul equates it with the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit:

    Mark 3:28 “I solemnly declare that any sin of man can be forgiven, even blasphemy against me; 29 but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit can never be forgiven. It is an eternal sin.”

    This one convicts you of blasphemy, Buckeee.

    30 For we know him who said, “Justice belongs to me; I will repay them”; who also said, “The Lord himself will handle these cases.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

    Mhm. Yep. The bible convicts you and all Protestants. The Bible Teaches Catholic Doctrine.

    He offered himself once and it put sin away. Hebrews 10:18 ” There remains NO more sacrifices for sin.”

    Because the only sacrifice for sin is in the Mass. And you reject the Mass, thereby trampling underfoot the Body of Christ which was sacrificed for your sins and insulting the Blood of Christ which was shed for you. Thus, you blaspheme the Holy Spirit of God which pours out His grace to all who partake of the Holy Eucharist with faith.

    Against the Romish church and it’s idolatry of transubstantiation , an invention of the human brain. Let Him off the cross Catholics, HE IS RISEN!!!!!!! K

    Again, you have not understood the Teaching of the Scripture:

    1 Corinthians 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

    Yeah, unbelievers, like yourself, don’t understand that Christ died for us to be saved. Therefore, we don’t take Christ off the Cross. We join Him upon it:

    Galatians 2:20
    I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

    Yeah, we obey Christ.

    1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

    We take up our Cross and follow Him:

    Matthew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

    In order that we may find merit in His eyes and be saved. And you don’t. What do the words, “worthy of me” mean, Fred?

  96. Debbie, there is nothing mystical about the Romish church. True Christians have always clearly seen it for what it is , apostate, false Christianity, a front for the kingdom of Satan. The Papacy is the beast who has waged war against the true saints of God. You, however, cannot see this without God lifting the veil on your eyes 2Thessalonians 2:11. The true church has always known this and separated itself from that system.. A corrupt Priesthood and sin has been the legacy of the Romish church. Our confessions are clear, London Baptist, WCF, Belgic, Concord, Hedelberg, etc, all say Papacy is antchrist. Anti meaning against or in place of. Our job is to encourage God’s elect to come out of her. K

  97. Demaria said, in respond to me saying there are no more sacrifices for sin Hebrews 10:18, ” The sacrifice of the Mass is that sacrifice. ” What? You just agreed there are no more according to this verse. Scripture says the finished sacrifice of Christ on the cross cannot be repeated or continued. The word is epaphax. So when Trent says that the Mass is a true and real re breaking of the Lord’s body for sin, it lies. Why do your Priests thing they have the power to put my Lord back on the cross an eternal victim, when He is risen and glorified having defeated sin and death. Does your Priestcraft have the power to put Christ back on the cross as His regent? K

  98. FRED May 27, 2015 at 8:53 am
    Demaria said, in respond to me saying there are no more sacrifices for sin Hebrews 10:18, ” The sacrifice of the Mass is that sacrifice. ” What? ….

    Don’t ignore my post. Respond to what I said. I’ll repost it for your convenience. I went through the Scripture line by line and showed you exactly, what. AND, answer the question.

    DE MARIA May 27, 2015 at 7:49 am
    FRED May 27, 2015 at 6:53 am
    For those interested in the truth of the early church and how they meticulously maintained their categories , seeTim Kauffmans blog and one fold blog. ….

    For those interested in the truth, that’s the last place they should go. If you’re interested in the truth of the early Church, go to staycatholic.com

    Hebrews is clear and cannot be refuted,

    That is true. Keep reading.

    Hebrews 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

    Oh look! A description of baptism which says that when we are washed with pure water we are actually washed in Christ’s blood.

    But I actually wanted to show you what follows:

    25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together
    We call that the Mass. He says, don’t neglect to meet together for the Mass. Why? He’ll tell us next.
    as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
    26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

    Because neglecting to meet together for the Mass is the same thing as rejecting Christ’s sacrifice. It amounts to a deliberate sin against Christ.

    This is why missing the Mass is considered a mortal sin in the Catholic Church. Now, you see that you reject the Mass, wilfully and therefore, can you be saved? It is a very grave sin, Fred.

    27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

    Those who miss the Mass are considered God’s enemies. That means you.

    28 A man who refused to obey the laws given by Moses was killed without mercy if there were two or three witnesses to his sin. 29 Think how much more terrible the punishment will be for those who have trampled underfoot the Son of God and treated his cleansing blood as though it were common and unhallowed,
    Why is missing the Mass considered to be a trampling underfoot of the Son of God? Why is it considered to be an insult to the cleansing blood of Christ?

    Let’s cross reference with 1 Cor 11:27 So if anyone eats this bread and drinks from this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, he is guilty of sin against the body and the blood of the Lord. 28 That is why a man should examine himself carefully before eating the bread and drinking from the cup. 29 For if he eats the bread and drinks from the cup unworthily, not thinking about the body of Christ and what it means, he is eating and drinking God’s judgment upon himself; for he is trifling with the death of Christ. 30 That is why many of you are weak and sick, and some have even died.

    and insulted and outraged the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to his people.

    It is such a wicked sin that St. Paul equates it with the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit:

    Mark 3:28 “I solemnly declare that any sin of man can be forgiven, even blasphemy against me; 29 but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit can never be forgiven. It is an eternal sin.”

    This one convicts you of blasphemy, Buckeee.

    30 For we know him who said, “Justice belongs to me; I will repay them”; who also said, “The Lord himself will handle these cases.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

    Mhm. Yep. The bible convicts you and all Protestants. The Bible Teaches Catholic Doctrine.

    He offered himself once and it put sin away. Hebrews 10:18 ” There remains NO more sacrifices for sin.”

    Because the only sacrifice for sin is in the Mass. And you reject the Mass, thereby trampling underfoot the Body of Christ which was sacrificed for your sins and insulting the Blood of Christ which was shed for you. Thus, you blaspheme the Holy Spirit of God which pours out His grace to all who partake of the Holy Eucharist with faith.

    Against the Romish church and it’s idolatry of transubstantiation , an invention of the human brain. Let Him off the cross Catholics, HE IS RISEN!!!!!!! K

    Again, you have not understood the Teaching of the Scripture:

    1 Corinthians 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
    Yeah, unbelievers, like yourself, don’t understand that Christ died for us to be saved. Therefore, we don’t take Christ off the Cross. We join Him upon it:

    Galatians 2:20
    I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

    Yeah, we obey Christ.

    1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

    We take up our Cross and follow Him:

    Matthew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

    In order that we may find merit in His eyes and be saved. And you don’t. What do the words, “worthy of me” mean, Fred?

    Yeah, the Bible is a Catholic Book. It is the first infallible document set forth by the Catholic Church and contains all Catholic Doctrine. If you understood the Bible, you would be a Catholic.

  99. Robert, Michael, Eric W, Eric, Kevin, The defenders of true and undefiled religion, listen to DeMaria, ” IN ORDER THAT WE MIGHT FIND MERIT IN HIS EYES AND BE SAVED. Go out and do your part gospel.. FIND = EARN. Debbie says we will be justified on our obedience to love. Cross the Tiber and come join our meritocracy, FULL COMMUNION. Isn’t everybody feeling the peace and good news of Rome’s full communion , compulsory service. That will bring peace. Everybodys doing a brand new dance now, c’mon baby do the locomotion. Da da da He will give you a chance now, c’mon baby do the locomotion. C’mon c’mon and do the locomotion with me. Keep churning out those masses on the treadmill to perfection. That’s great news. K

  100. DeMaria, hope you are well. How do you interpret this verse Titus 3:5 ” He saved us , not according to deeds wrought in holiness, but according to his mercy. ? If deeds done in holiness of heart don’t save us, how do you stay in that meritocracy? Thanks k

  101. FRED May 27, 2015 at 9:18 am
    DeMaria, hope you are well. How do you interpret this verse Titus 3:5 ” He saved us , not according to deeds wrought in holiness, but according to his mercy. ? If deeds done in holiness of heart don’t save us, how do you stay in that meritocracy? Thanks k

    You didn’t post the whole thing, Fredkev.

    Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

    The washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit is a description of Baptism. As Jesus said:

    Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

    You keep ignoring my question. Jesus also said:

    Matthew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

    What do the words, “worthy of me” mean, Fredkev?

  102. Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

    Me – silly De Maria…don’t you know some Protestants here don’t think this verse is even inspired?

    As for the question you are asking of the annoying one, I mean “anointed one”, good luck getting a straight answer. They must keep the waters muddy.

  103. CKLynnDebbieLaneBob and DeMaria, sorry Charlie, scripture doesn’t teach baptismal regeneration, but hey it doesn’t teach Mary is thec4th member of hectOring either, but that hasn’t stopped the Romish church. If the scripture taught regeneration then we would see it every time the gospel is preached in scripture, but that simply isn’t the case. Paul said he wasn’t sent to baptize, but preach the gospel. Infant baptism was the monolithic chhristianization of babies for the state and is Rome’s hook to its false system. DeMaria, Titus 3:5 eliminates all works. The washing of regeneration by the SPIRIT and the Word is an OT reference to cleansing by the Spirit. Nicodemus knew nothing of NT baptism, so he would only understand Jesus reference to the washing as cleansing from sin, born again. Baptism is a sign, without faith it means nothing. John said in 1: 22, those who believe obtain eternal life. No magic water, sorry scripture doesn’t teach this. Salvation isn’t in the hand of an earthly sinner Priest, but the Holy Spirit. K

  104. That should read if the scripture taught baptismal regeneration, we would see it whenever the gospel is preached, but we don’t. K

  105. CK May 27, 2015 at 10:14 am

    Hi, good to see you again. Where’ve you been?

    Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
    Me – silly De Maria…don’t you know some Protestants here don’t think this verse is even inspired?

    Yeah. Isn’t it interesting how they claim to believe Scripture alone, but they’ll cast aside many Scriptures.

    As for the question you are asking of the annoying one, I mean “anointed one”, good luck getting a straight answer. They must keep the waters muddy.

    I keep asking the questions to make the point that they have no answers. No logical answers, anyway.

  106. De Maria and/or CK:

    Can you name at least one modern, Vatican-approved biblical scholar who believes that Mark wrote Mark 16:16 and that it should be included in the canon of Scripture?

  107. Robert,

    Trent. And the tradition.

    Silly Sola Scriptura can’t even say which books OR passages belong in the Bible. It is conceivable that an archeologist could potentially find some new manuscript that would cause some Protestants to throw out even more scripture in the future. Your canon is conditional, face it. It hangs on authority not found in the Bible, thus disproving Sola Scriptura.

  108. ROBERT May 27, 2015 at 12:00 pm
    De Maria and/or CK:
    Can you name at least one modern, Vatican-approved biblical scholar who believes that Mark wrote Mark 16:16 and that it should be included in the canon of Scripture?

    We don’t follow scholars, Robert. We follow the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church declared the books of the Latin Vulgate were canonical and inspired. And that Bible includes this verse.

    Unlike you, we believe the Scripture which says:
    Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

    It is the Catholic Church which teaches the Wisdom of God, Robert. Not individual scholars, willy nilly. By following them, you have led yourself astray.

  109. De Maria, you wrote:
    I do. That is why I can showcase your errors and lies.

    Let’s see.
    ————————

    Jesus: “For MANY will come in My name…

    De Maria:
    1. Catholic Priests are ambassadors for Christ who pray for you in Christ’s stead
    2. By the same name that the Church has always served. In the name of Christ.
    3. “Christ says that we are His Body!”
    4. None of you are Christ, because none of you are of Him.
    5. When we offer the Body of Christ to God the Father in the Eucharistic Sacrifice, we offer ourselves as well.
    ————————

    Jesus: saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead MANY.

    De Maria: And they will answer, “Christ says that we are His Body!”

    Response:
    “They” and “We” signify many. But De Maria isn’t many. He’s one.

    De Maria, if he’s honest, will answer….

    1. Christ says that De Maria is a member of His Body.
    2. Christ says that “I” am a member of His Body.

    Slam it together, bake for a few minutes and we get….

    I (DE MARIA) AM THE CHRIST.

    Showcase !

  110. LANE May 27, 2015 at 12:08 pm
    Robert,
    Trent. And the tradition.
    Silly Sola Scriptura can’t even say which books OR passages belong in the Bible. It is conceivable that an archeologist could potentially find some new manuscript that would cause some Protestants to throw out even more scripture in the future. Your canon is conditional, face it. It hangs on authority not found in the Bible, thus disproving Sola Scriptura.

    Well said, Lane! Protestant theology boils down to Solus verbum meum , “my word alone”. They take out of Scripture and put into Scripture whatever they feel like and whenever they feel like it.

  111. ERIC W May 27, 2015 at 12:12 pm
    De Maria, you wrote:
    I do. That is why I can showcase your errors and lies.
    Let’s see.
    ————————
    Jesus: “For MANY will come in My name…
    De Maria:
    1. Catholic Priests are ambassadors for Christ who pray for you in Christ’s stead
    2. By the same name that the Church has always served. In the name of Christ.
    3. “Christ says that we are His Body!”
    4. None of you are Christ, because none of you are of Him.
    5. When we offer the Body of Christ to God the Father in the Eucharistic Sacrifice, we offer ourselves as well.

    All of that is in Scripture, as I showed you.
    ————————
    Jesus: saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead MANY.

    Jesus never said that.

    De Maria: And they will answer, “Christ says that we are His Body!”

    That is in Scripture.

    Response:
    “They” and “We” signify many. But De Maria isn’t many. He’s one.

    That is true. I am one. Is that the point you were making?

    De Maria, if he’s honest, will answer….
    1. Christ says that De Maria is a member of His Body.
    2. Christ says that “I” am a member of His Body.
    Slam it together, bake for a few minutes and we get….
    I (DE MARIA) AM THE CHRIST.
    Showcase !

    We, Catholics, actually believe Scripture. Have you not read the Word of God?

    Galatians 2:20
    I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: ….

    Do you believe that? Yes or no.

  112. The folly of casting pearls before swine …

    He who corrects a scoffer gets himself abuse, and he who reproves a wicked man incurs injury. Do not reprove a scoffer, or he will hate you …
    Proverbs 9:7&8
    .
    “Do not give dogs what is holy; and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under foot and turn to attack you.”
    Matthew 7:6

    A worthless person, a wicked man,
    goes about with crooked speech,
    winks with his eyes, scrapes with his feet,
    points with his finger,
    with perverted heart devises evil,
    continually sowing discord;
    therefore calamity will come upon him suddenly;
    in a moment he will be broken beyond healing.
    Proverbs 6:12-15

  113. I wrote:
    Jesus: saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead MANY.

    De Maria wrote:
    Jesus never said that.

    Response:
    It’s a honest mistake, so just look again.
    ————————–

    De Maria, you asked:
    That is true. I am one. Is that the point you were making?

    Response:
    Jesus said that the MANY will say, “I….” The unity of one and many. You are one unified with the many. Together you say, “I am the Christ.” You fulfill His words and mislead many. He who runs may read.

  114. ERIC W May 27, 2015 at 12:59 pm
    ————————–
    De Maria, you asked:
    That is true. I am one. Is that the point you were making?
    Response:
    Jesus said that the MANY will say, “I….” The unity of one and many. You are one unified with the many. Together you say, “I am the Christ.” You fulfill His words and mislead many. He who runs may read.

    Your words are incoherent.

    However, I take it you disagree that the Church is the Body of Christ. Therefore, my challenge to you stands.

    We, Catholics, actually believe Scripture. Have you not read the Word of God?
    Galatians 2:20
    I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: ….

    Do you believe that? Yes or no.

  115. Mateo wrote:
    The folly of casting pearls before swine …

    Response:
    If Mateo is one of the many who mislead the many, then his Bible quotes are part of the misleading.

    “For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. – Matt. 24:5

    Mateo, with the many, says, “I am the Christ.”

  116. ERIC W May 27, 2015 at 1:17 pm
    Mateo wrote:
    The folly of casting pearls before swine …
    Response:
    If Mateo is one of the many who mislead the many, then his Bible quotes are part of the misleading.
    “For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. – Matt. 24:5
    Mateo, with the many, says, “I am the Christ.”

    As I said, I guess you disagree with Scripture where it says that the Church is the Body of Christ. Therefore, my question to you remains unanswered.

    We, Catholics, actually believe Scripture.

    Galatians 2:20 says:
    I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: ….

    Do you believe that? Yes or no.

  117. De Maria wrote:
    Your words are incoherent.

    Debates with Catholics end here. They go from the Supernatural Man (Bible Verses and benefit of the doubt stuff) to Natural Man. NM judges if the words are coherent.
    ———————-

    Do you believe that? Yes or no.

    You don’t want a confession. You want a Magisterial answer.

  118. Eric W, you do sound like my crazy uncle at times…Just sayin…

  119. like my crazy uncle

    From Supernatural Man to Natural Man to Psychologist….the finger pointing-disappointed-family member is next

  120. “If Mateo is one of the many who mislead the many, then his Bible quotes are part of the misleading.
    “For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. – Matt. 24:5
    Mateo, with the many, says, “I am the Christ.”

    You know, you could take this a couple of different ways.

    I think secretly you love The One Holy Catholic Church, and feel blessed to recognize the true Bride. Your NM fights against the Supernatural which knows where we all came from. I would work toward the virtue of patience.

    “My father’s family name being Pirrip, and my Christian name, Phillip, my infant tongue could make of both names nothing longer or more explicit than ‘Pip’. So I called myself Pip and came to be called Pip.” Charles Dickens from Great Expectations

  121. Eric W May 27, 2015 at 2:07 pm

    like my crazy uncle

    From Supernatural Man to Natural Man to Psychologist….the finger pointing-disappointed-family member is next

    Me – it’s not next. It’s now. No psychology needed on my part. He knows it. You’d probably show some improvement if you can decrease the amount of stamp licking… 🙂

  122. Eric W – I am just giving you a hard time. Your writing can be very difficult to untangle though.

  123. Demaria said ” I guess you disagree that the church is the body of Christ.” Which church you talking about? Since you’re good at finding things that aren’t in scripture, can you point us to a NT sacrificing Priesthood, an altar, Popes, nuns, Cardinals, scapular ,Mary the mother of God, assumption of Mary, immaculate conception, pilgrimages, apparitions of Mary, sacerdoatalism, penance, sacramental s, Grace as a soul substance, purgatory, treasury of merit, prayer to dead saints, praying to Mary, Mary as font of all graces, more than one mediator, vestments, the ringing of the bell, not taking the wine in communion, satisfaction, condign merit, congrous merit, baptismal regeneration, confirmation, function, transubstantiation, beads, rosaries, anulments, etc. This isn’t a Christian denomination, it’s a pagan religion, eassier found in wonderland, than anywhere in the Word of God. No wonder you hate sola scriptura. K

  124. Eric W ,CK, said ” You remind me of my crazy uncle” then ” just kidding. “Watch bro she is a honey dripper of proverbs. Sudden niceness , the she pounces on her prey and drags you across the river to the synagogue. She has many disguises. Lol k

  125. Debbie said to Eric W ” I think you secretly love the Holy Catholic church” Eric W loves the catholic church superintended by the Spirit. I think he loves the Roman Catholic false church too, I agree with you. I have noticed this, especially when he speaks of your bishop gods, and the false god of the Roman Eucharist. K

  126. Red, yellow, black and white (Eric W, Fred, CK, Debbie, Disguises) they are precious in his sight. Jesus loves the little children of the world. Sometimes our replies should be Sunday School songs.

  127. Whoever corrects the arrogant earns insults …
    Proverbs 9:7

  128. FRED May 27, 2015 at 2:56 pm
    Demaria said ” I guess you disagree that the church is the body of Christ.”….

    In fact, you disagree with Scripture in many places.

    When Jesus says, “not worthy of me”, He means that you do not merit eternal life:

    Matthew 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

    Matthew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

    When Scripture says,

    Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

    That means we are regenerated and born again, in Baptism.

    When Scripture says:
    Hebrews 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

    That means that if you neglect the Mass, there is no more offering for your sins because you have become God’s enemy:

    Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
    31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

    Where Scripture says, you can fall away, it is because you can fall away:
    Hebrews 6:4-6 [Full Chapter]
    For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

    Oh, and you asked, “which church”?

    The Catholic Church, of course.

  129. Mateo,

    Arrogant ? I’m showing everyone how Catholics fulfill the words of Jesus.

    “For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. – Matt. 24:5

    Just say, “I am the Christ.” Manifest yourself. Are you the Christ ? This is MY body.

  130. ERIC W May 27, 2015 at 4:29 pm
    Mateo,
    Arrogant ?

    Well, you recognized yourself.

    I’m showing everyone how Catholics fulfill the words of Jesus.

    You’re showing everyone that you don’t believe Scripture.

    “For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. – Matt. 24:5

    That is a reference to Protestants who claim to be preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ but are actually preaching a false gospel of man.

    Just say, “I am the Christ.” Manifest yourself. Are you the Christ ? This is MY body.

    Jesus Christ established a Church, His Body. This is the Catholic Church. And Scripture says that the Church prays for us in the name of Christ.

    2 Corinthians 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

    But you don’t believe that.

    And you don’t believe this:

    Galatians 2:20 [Full Chapter]
    I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:….

    If you did, you would have answered “yes” to my question. But you didn’t, thereby proving that you don’t.

  131. De Maria wrote:
    Jesus Christ established a Church, His Body. This is the Catholic Church.

    Response:
    The many who mislead say, “I am the Christ.” Will you tell me if the CC says, “I am the Christ ?” Identify her voice and words. What does she say ?
    —————————

    And you don’t believe this:
    Galatians 2:20 [Full Chapter]
    I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:….
    If you did, you would have answered “yes” to my question. But you didn’t, thereby proving that you don’t.

    Response:
    You want a magisterial answer, not a confession (martyrs grow from this seedbed). You want to know if MY “I” believes something about Paul’s “I” in Christ. You don’t want a confession of my faith in my true spirit-baptized-union with Christ, who is forever praised ! Paul believed, then spoke.

    It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken.” Since we have that same spirit of faith, we also believe and therefore speak – 2Cor. 4:13

    You want me to manifest myself as a Catholic, i.e. I’m one of many who believe under the rule and government of Peter’s successor (and company). I testify and confess with John, saying, “I am not the Christ.” Thank God John died before Jesus said, “This is my body.” If he lived, then many would make him a liar too. I know some words the CC covets in her heart. She has her own believe then speak thing going on.

    “I was angry with My people, I profaned My heritage And gave them into your hand. You did not show mercy to them, On the aged you made your yoke very heavy. “Yet you said, ‘I will be a queen forever.’ These things you did not consider Nor remember the outcome of them. “Now, then, hear this, you sensual one, Who dwells securely, Who says in your heart, ‘I am, and there is no one besides me. I will not sit as a widow, Nor know loss of children. – Isa.47: 6-8
    ——————————

    Don’t try to turn the tables on me. I don’t want a magisterial answer when I asked you to tell me if the CC says, “I am the Christ.” I wanted a confession or denial (martyrdom is remote) APART from the CC rule and government. Hell, I want it apart from the CC altogether.

    Do you believe this:

    I am the Christ.

    Yes or No ?

  132. DeMaria said that the official magisterial position on Matthew 10:37,38 is men ” merit eternal life, correct? When Jesus says not worthy of me in those verses, Rome’s official position is this means you merit eternal life correct? Yes or no please. K

  133. Eric W quoted Jesus, many false prophets will say “I am Christ” quoting Mathew. DeMaria said ” Jesus never said that” DeMaria denies the words of Jesus in Mathew. DeMaria said to Kevin the official magisterial position on Matthew 10:37,38 is men merit eternal life. DeMaria adds justification to this verse. Debbie said ” Eric W ” I think you secretly love the one Holy Catholic church ( Roman specific) and feel blessed to recognize the truss bride.” Now let’s apply Kevin’s rule, read ROman Catholic doctrine, bJesus said elieve the opposite arrive at biblical truth. DeMaria said Jesus didn’t say the many will say ” I am the Christ”, but Mathew said He did. DeMaria said Mathew 10:37, 38 says men merit eternal life, but the verse doesn’t say that. And Debbie says Eric Loves Rome, but Eric is a Baptist who walked away from the false gospel and idolatry of Rome. Satan will make good look evil and evil look good. Moral of the story. Many will come and say ” I am the Christ” Jesus said DON’T believe them. K

  134. ERIC W May 28, 2015 at 2:39 am
    De Maria wrote:
    Jesus Christ established a Church, His Body. This is the Catholic Church.
    Response:
    The many who mislead say, “I am the Christ.” Will you tell me if the CC says, “I am the Christ ?” Identify her voice and words. What does she say ?….

    I already answered your questions, Eric W. But you refuse to answer mine. Therefore our dialogue is ended. The bottom line is simply this. You don’t believe that the Church is the Body of Christ. You don’t believe the Word of God.

  135. FRED May 28, 2015 at 5:13 am
    DeMaria said that the official magisterial position on Matthew 10:37,38 is men ” merit eternal life, correct? When Jesus says not worthy of me in those verses, Rome’s official position is this means you merit eternal life correct? Yes or no please. K

    You first, Fredkev. What makes you think I should answer your questions, if you don’t answer mine.

    So, tell me, what does it mean when Jesus says, “not worthy of me”.

  136. FRED May 28, 2015 at 5:44 am
    Eric W quoted Jesus, many false prophets will say “I am Christ” quoting Mathew. DeMaria said ” Jesus never said that” DeMaria denies the words of Jesus in Mathew…..

    Fred? No wonder you have problems with Scripture. Here’s what Eric W said:

    Jesus: saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead MANY.

  137. And no, Fred, that is not a quote from Matthew.

    Now, answer the question. What did Jesus mean when He said, “not worthy of me”?

  138. DeMaria said ” and no Fred that isn’t a quote from Mathew. Wrong buckwheat! Lol Matthew 24:4-5, ” And Jesus answered and said ” See to it that DeMaria doesn’t mislead you, 25 For many Wil come in my name and say ” I am the Christ” and will mislead you. Can you tell us if the CC claims to be Christ? So we can make a judgment. Here is what verse 23-24 tells me and Eric W ” Then if anyone says to you ” Behold , here is the Christ or there He is, DO NOT BELIEVE HIM. For false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders ( apparitions of Mary, Debbie bends rings, Popes claim to be God on earth, Priests make dough gods, bleeding hosts, etc.) SO AS TO MISLEAD, if possible the elect. ” Now can you identify yourself or your church as saying ” I am the Christ ” please? Thanks k

  139. ReMarkably said ” answer the question. Ok. Let’s talk about first what it doesn’t mean. Since Paul says nothing coming from ourselves or are works are meritorious in salvation , it isn’t supporting your false interpretation of mediating salvation. This has to be interpreted in light of verse 32. ” whoever confesses Me before men , I will confess before God ( jbfa) , but whoever doesn’t confess Me before men I will deny.” Then he talks about the costs of coming to Christ, repenting and believing. You have to be willing to give up your lifestyle and relationships to come to repentance. But it isn’t saying what you do is meritorious in salvation. Why? Because Romans 5:10 says we are saved by HIS life, not ours. And that isn’t the carnal comingling of you and Jesus as you merit forgiveness in taking the bread god. Adam became a life giving soul, Jesus became a life giving SPIRIT. Get it. His merits, not his flesh, are applied to us through faith alone. We are incorporated into His body through the SPIRIT. Rome’s carnal sacrament profits nothing. K

  140. Eric W.,

    In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

    This is the key to everything, the name above all names.

    It seems to me you are confusing being ‘Christ’ and being IN CHRIST.

    “Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.”

    “Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

    “And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.”

    “IF you love me, KEEP my commands.”

    “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. ”

    “The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. ”

    I will not leave you as orphans; I WILL COME TO YOU.”

    JOHN 14:11-19

  141. FRED May 28, 2015 at 6:45 am
    DeMaria said ” and no Fred that isn’t a quote from Mathew. Wrong buckwheat! Lol Matthew 24:4-5, ” And Jesus answered and said ” See to it that DeMaria doesn’t mislead you, ….

    Still trying to change the subject, Fred?

    The question awaiting your answer is this, if salvation is not merited, why did Jesus say, “those who do not take up their cross and follow me ARE NOT WORTHY OF ME.

    What did Jesus mean by “not worthy of me”?

    Now can you identify yourself or your church as saying ” I am the Christ ” please? Thanks k

    The Catholic Church is the Church of Jesus Christ and She says that she is the Bride of Christ, the Body of Christ and that She is united to Christ.

    When Saul was persecuting the Church, Jesus Christ asked him, “why do you persecute me?”

    Do you believe these things, Fred? I don’t think so, because if you did, you would believe that your denomination was infallible. But you don’t.

  142. ReMarks, dude are you alive. I answered your question specifically, did you miss my post . The context is in verse 32 whoever CONFESSES Me I will CONFESS before the Father, jbfa. So your interpretation of verse 37 is lame. Incidentally , you won’t answer my question, so ill do it for you. Your Magicsterium Rosenthal that verse to support meriting salvation. Your wrong, try again. We love how you guys interpret scripture for yourself, but we can’t do it apart from Rome. Read 1 John 2:27, slowly. K

  143. The posts that say ReMarkably is for DeMaria. My typing is a scream. Lol

  144. Debbie said to Eric W, ” it seems like your confusing Christ and being in Christ.” Ummm, no. False prophets who say I am Christ aren’t in Christ, even if they claim they are. The Fathers were fearful that the antichrist would be among them. Why? Because Paul said he would come from WITHIN the church. A religious man. 2 Thessalonians 2, he puts himself up in the church as God. ” Many will come to me in that day and say Lord, Lord, and He will say , be gone from Me , I never new you. They thought they were in Christ, He said they weren’t. Being baptized in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit doesn’t make you a Christian, just like going to MacDonalds don’t make you a hamburger. K

  145. FRED May 28, 2015 at 8:39 am
    ReMarks, dude are you alive. I answered your question specifically, did you miss my post ….

    Just cut and paste it again. Cause I don’t see it. All I see is you, changing the subject.

  146. Driving to a McDonalds, asking for a hamburger and then eating the hamburger doesn’t make a person ‘the hamburger’.

    It enables you to ingest a hamburger in the actual location where the hamburger is made, and giving you energy to get you through until your next meal. At that point you are in all truth, a carnivore.

    Now we can go really deep (I know you have difficulty with this) and wonder how did the McDonalds get there in the first place … and on and on ……

  147. Getting back to the topic of this post, I’ve been struggling to comprehend how the All-Powerful Triune God can be viewed as pouring out His wrath on Himself.

    The Holy Trinity is the fullness of Love and Truth.

    Love is, by its very nature, unconditional. Authentic love is a wholly gratuitous and selfless seeking of the good of the other, without condition, including the conditions that the other “deserve” it or that such love be returned.

    God’s love is unconditional.

    IF IT IS conditional, then it isn’t selfless, it isn’t gratuitous, and it isn’t fully love.
    Love is not a quid pro quo. Love itself is a unilateral choice and action, even if the enactment of a loving relationship requires the acceptance of that love by the other to convert the love from a unilateral action to a transaction. But even if the person rejects that love AND the offer of a loving relationship, this rejection does not eliminate the love — the love itself remains. Even if not accepted by the other, the person who loves is still able to make a conscious act of the will to subordinate himself, and to unconditionally and selflessly seek the good and welfare of the other, including the gift of himself for the other’s benefit. This is the way that God loves.

    And God doesn’t just love, HE IS LOVE.

    This is the Mystery of the Holy Trinity.

    The tricky part for us is to love as God loves.

    Therein lies grace.

    And how we get those hamburgers.

  148. Debbie, you wrote:
    It seems to me you are confusing being ‘Christ’ and being IN CHRIST.

    Response:
    “For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. – Matt. 24:5

    Compare:
    1. In my name
    2.In Christ

    They cannot say “I am the Christ” without first coming in his name. That’s one way they mislead with “I am the Christ.” Even Jesus said, “…if I testify on my own behalf…”

    Jesus answered, “Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. – John 8:14

    Just openly confess with John, saying, “I am not the Christ.” I believe that I’m not the Christ.
    ————————

    I don’t recognize you because you have no need of me.

    The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” – 1Cor. 12:21

    The head needs me, and I need the head. Your head has no need of me; therefore, I have no need of your head.

  149. Do you want to work at McDonalds? They are always needing good help, always.

  150. Debbie said, ” I’m struggling to comprehend the view how can an all powerful triune God can pour our his wrath on himself. Eric told you this, God the Father poured out his wrath on his Son. God the Father didn’t die on the cross. His son hung on a tree to take the curse intended for us because of sin. 2Corinthians 5:21. You have to realize that He was sent to the cross by the predetermined plan of God to be pierced through for our transgressions. God turned his back on his own Son, sin, so that we became the righteousness of God in Him. We are sinners by hereditary right. Jesus randomized us out of slavery. He lived the law in our place, she’d his blood . Justified by his blood and righteousness, offered as a free gift by faith. K

  151. “Your head has no need of me; therefore, I have no need of your head.”

    This says volumes, I’m so sorry that someone told you they have no need of you.

    The Body of Christ needs you.

  152. “Eric told you this, God the Father poured out his wrath on his Son. God the Father didn’t die on the cross. His son hung on a tree to take the curse intended for us because of sin.”

    Oh, so you are separating them out?

    I think that is against the Law.

    Where was the Holy Spirit during this divorce?

  153. Debbie, you wrote:
    This says volumes, I’m so sorry that someone told you they have no need of you.

    The Body of Christ needs you

    Response:
    Square De Maria’s words with your words. Both of you are Catholic, right ?

    De Maria wrote to me:
    None of you are Christ, because none of you are of Him. Therefore, you condemn yourselves by your own words.

  154. How many Catholics does it take to get to center of a non-Antichristic confession ? The world may never know.

    I believe that I am not the Christ.

  155. A fool takes no pleasure in understanding,
    but only in expressing his opinion.
    Proverbs 18:2

  156. Debbie said ” oh so your separating them out.” That’s right, God the Father didn’t die on the cross. God the Son died. If you can’t aknowledge that , no one can help you. When Jesus cried out to the Father ” why have you forsaken me” you would have us believe God the Father was on the cross crying out to himself. Wake up, there is a whole world out there. You make it sound like it was a a big card party at the crucifixion. He felt separated and abandoned in his soul. He never stop being God, but He gave up the rights to be God, take on flesh in our likeness, and became SIN. He became SIN. We became righteous. He cancelled out all the legal decrees against us, Colossians 2. True Christians don’t go to Masses to merit merit. They trust and comemorate the finished one time sacrifice that saved us. K

  157. On behalf of Mateo the Fool:

    Mateo’s Prov. 18:2 quote is perfect to describe the theological conditions of the everyday RC. I know this because Mateo is showing it right now ! Every RC is a fool when expressing his opinion until the Magisterium renders judgment.

    Mateo’s foolishness under the microscope:

    1. Mateo judged Eric W as a fool.
    2. Mateo is expressing his opinion.
    3. The Magisterium didn’t render judgment about Eric W in relation to Prov.18:2

    Keep it up Mateo. Job well done ! Are you ready to openly confess like Eric W ?

    I believe that I am not the Christ.

  158. I ask again,

    Where was the Holy Spirit during this divorce?

  159. Mateo, so are you the fool, start understanding! Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. K

  160. Divorce? huh. You dent that God the Son died on the cross. Was He raised from the dead, or metaphysical subconscious. Lol

  161. Eric W, they won’t answer, we will have to assume they are the Christ. K

  162. Fred,

    neither affirm, nor deny….and the misleading marches on

  163. On second thought, this whole concept is probably completely foreign to you.

    Let’s take it a step at a time – at what point do you think the Father abandoned the Son (I won’t even ask you about the Holy Spirit)?

    Was it during the Last Supper, or in the Garden, possibly at the Arrest, or maybe when He was Condemned?

    What about at the Bloody Scourging, the Crowning with Thorns, the Carrying of the Cross?

    Or was it the moment they drove the nails into His hands?

    Or maybe it was after that, when they drove the nails into His feet?

    Was it during the 3 hours He hung on the Cross, or maybe the last moment?

    Hey, you know what, our Lord didn’t come down off the Holy Cross right away – He hung on the Cross for a while. . .then they pierced His side . . . .

    Take me through it step by step so that I can understand the Calvinist view of the Abandonment. I really do want to know exactly what is the precise belief that you have to claim to be a Calvinist Protestant.

  164. The way of a fool is right in his own eyes,
    but a wise man listens to advice.
    Proverbs 12:15

  165. Jim,

    You said something that interested me a while back and I wanted to comment upon it.

    What I found interesting was the age of those in attendance. Maybe one or two people were old enough to remember the halcyon days of Latin Mass only…… Why are so many young people drawn to a spirituality they have no personal recollection of? Because they are starved for holiness.

    It has long been the case that the “traditionalist” movement is a young person thing. Thats why I still have so much hope yet in our Church! Once these hippie bishops and cardinals die out, and we finally put the “new spring time” behind us, these young trads will be the people who pick up the torch. Thank God!

    You say that young people are starved for holiness… maybe. I think it more has to do with the intrinsic beauty and superiority of the extraordinary form. Remember, not only do these young people not remember the ancient days of orthodoxy, they also werent around for chaos surrounding the debacle that was the second vatican council. Young converts are almost always trads because it was never this modern church that called to them in the first place. Almost always it was more Aquinas, Augustine, Trent. Pius X, etc. etc. You might remember Scott Hahn speaking about how dismayed he felt when he converted and found such widespread ignorance and lukewarmness. He found refuge in Opus Dei. Its a sad time that we are living in…. but the future always brings hope.

  166. Listen to advice….If you confess “I believe that I’m not the Christ,” then it’s harder for the enemy to convince others that you believe “I am the Christ.”

  167. Debbie

    Getting back to the topic of this post, I’ve been struggling to comprehend how the All-Powerful Triune God can be viewed as pouring out His wrath on Himself.

    You are realizing what many see – that the Calvinistic conception of God the Father viciously punishing his innocent Son is nothing more than a theology of cosmic child abuse.

    The real question to me is why Calvinists have such a perverse conception of God the Father.

    The Holy Trinity is the fullness of Love and Truth.
    .
    Love is, by its very nature, unconditional. Authentic love is a wholly gratuitous and selfless seeking of the good of the other, without condition, including the conditions that the other “deserve” it or that such love be returned.
    .
    God’s love is unconditional.

    Agape is unconditional love, but there are other kinds of love that are not perfect love. I can’t think of a better book that explains this than the Four Loves by C. S. Lewis.

    Agape is natural to God, but beyond what is in our human nature to manifest. St. John the Evangelist writes that Jesus taught us:

    A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
    John 13:34

    But what is “new” about that commandment? Didn’t the Jews already have the two great commandments of love? Of course they did. But they were incapable of fully keeping those two commandments of love because they lacked the Sacramental Graces.

    St. John comments on this new commandment of love:

    He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked. Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment which you had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard. Yet I am writing you a new commandment, which is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining. He who says he is in the light and hates his brother is in the darkness still. He who loves his brother abides in the light, and in it there is no cause for stumbling.
    1John 2:4-10

    “I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment … Yet I am writing you a new commandment, which is true in him and in you.” To love as Jesus loves is a new commandment, because it requires a new kind of love from human beings. The Sacramental graces makes us partakers in the divine nature, and when we partake of the divine nature, we can manifest the supernatural love of God – something that was not possible before the atoning sacrifice that restored man to a state of sanctifying grace.

    The elder to the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth, and not only I but also all who know the truth, because of the truth which abides in us and will be with us for ever: Grace, mercy, and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ the Father’s Son, in truth and love. I rejoiced greatly to find some of your children following the truth, just as we have been commanded by the Father. And now I beg you, lady, not as though I were writing you a new commandment, but the one we have had from the beginning, that we love one another. And this is love, that we follow his commandments; this is the commandment, as you have heard from the beginning, that you follow love.
    2 John 1: 1-6

    Again, St. John makes it clear, that to accept the Gospel is to follow God’s commandments concerning love.

    Eric W does not accept the Gospel. On a different thread, Eric W and I were exchanging posts about this teaching of St. John:

    He who does not love abides in death. Any one who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
    1 John 3: 14 & 15

    In that exchange of posts, Eric W let it be known that he believes that a Christian can be full of hatred for a brother, and in fact, he went further than that, and insisted that God commands men to hate certain men.

    The wise of heart will heed commandments, but a prating fool will come to ruin.
    Proverbs 10:8

    Which brings me back to your point. Why do Calvinists have such a perverse view of God the Father? To me it is obvious, it is because the Calvinists have rejected the Gospel and believe that a Christian can be full of hatred for another man. Their hatred in their hearts is reflected in their perverse understanding of God the Father, which is why non-Calvinists see the god of Calvinism as a moral monster, an idol that the Calvinists worship.

  168. Thanks Mateo,
    I’ve always known basically what they believe, but to be honest, didn’t ever really delve into it – no reason to.
    What has been so good for me over the last 3 years is to keep examining it, letting it sink in, and then letting the Holy Spirit shed light on how He wants me to see it. It truly edifies and deepens my understanding of the True Faith and gives me wonderful ways of expressing it to others.

    Even writing about the explanation of love earlier was so soothing to my soul as if, yes, of course, what an easy way to see this.
    Even the McDonalds trip was pure fun.

    If people weren’t pushing me with their anti-Catholicism, I would never have a reason to write thoughts down.

    You hit it on the head, “Their hatred in their hearts is reflected in their perverse understanding of God the Father, which is why non-Calvinists see the god of Calvinism as a moral monster, an idol that the Calvinists worship.”

    I would venture to say that many who have chosen to stay outside the Catholic Church, for one reason or another, have had to deal with a lot of hatred. They can’t wait for God to pour out His wrath to punish those who have hurt them. I actually understand this to some extent. God Bless them and have Mercy upon them.

  169. Maybe one or two people were old enough to remember the halcyon days of Latin Mass only …

    Halcyon? Hardly! I am old enough to remember the Mass said in Latin when I was at the age before I could read. The Mass was something that I did not want to attend as a young child – what I remember is sweating in uncomfortable clothes while the adults spouted words in a language that I could not understand (and neither could they); a priest standing with his back to me mumbling incomprehensibly into a cloth covered block of stone; painful kneeling for what seem like hours upon end, with no comprehension at all of what was going on around me.

    The young “trads” seem to forget that the ONLY reason that Mass began to be said in Latin is because Latin, not Greek, became the common language of the West. In its first days, the Latin Mass was an innovation that was necessary so that the illiterate could understand what was going on during the Mass. The Latin Mass is an innovation that has no real relevance for the average person that is not fluent in Latin as the lingua fraca.

    Once these hippie bishops and cardinals die out, and we finally put the “new spring time” behind us …

    Lol! I also can remember the Hootenany Masses that came after Vatican II. Don’t get me going on about that …

    For me, the Latin Mass is escapism into a fantasy world, a fantasy world that never existed for me. Now if I was fluent in Latin, it would not be escapism, because I would be attending a Mass where I understood (really understood) what was being said. At my age, I have no real desire to become fluent in Latin, just so I can understand what I can already understand when the Mass spoken in language that I speak daily.

  170. Debbie you write:

    Even writing about the explanation of love earlier was so soothing to my soul as if, yes, of course, what an easy way to see this. … If people weren’t pushing me with their anti-Catholicism, I would never have a reason to write thoughts down.

    I am glad you write your thoughts down and share them here, because I always read everything that you write, and I feel blessed by your gentle spirit. I only wish that there were more strong Catholic women like you that were posting on this website.

  171. Debbie, we say the Son died in his human nature. Persons die, not natures, so we don’t say his human nature died. His divinity allowed his humanity to be perfect. Only He was qualified to pay the debt of sin. And since we are sinners by hereditary right, and God’s justice had to be met to pay the penalty of our sins, we say He died in our stead. The passive and active obedience of Christ provided for us the free gift of righteousness Romans 5:17-19. He had to go away to send us the Spirit. At no time was the Trinty divorced or in jeopardy. Incidentally, it isn’t nestorian to act with one nature and not the other. The natures work in harmony without mixture. He certainly experienced separation from the Father in his soul. It’s the only time He calls him ” My God , My God , and not Father. Romans 3 says He was just and justifier of those who have faith in Jesus. You can see how the Roman Mass is a vile corruption of his finished work. It reduces Christ’s atonement to nothing. Which view is real love, the one where God gave his Son over to death on the cross , whose sacrifice has infinite value, or one which says He wasn’t able to accomplish eternal redemption.

  172. Mateo, you can continue to deny scripture and put up a straw man with the “child abuse” schtick. But you can’t deny Isaiah that it pleased God to crush Him, and He was pierced through for our transgressions. He was numbered with sinners. He did more for us than He’ll ever do for you. You guys throw love around with your mouths, but you deny his accomplishments. Our God is way more loving than yours. Ours sent his son to a cross to pay the whole bill. Yours paid 18 dollars of a 100 dollar bill and left you to work off the rest. I laugh when Catholics talk about love. Your god loved you so much He could only give you a kick in the butt and say good luck I hope you make it, but you won’t , so spend A couple thousand years in the fires of sarlac. Now if that aint love and FULL COMMUNION , what is. Do you people ever consider Hebrews says his one time sacrifice PUT SIN AWAY. K

  173. Debbie said to Mateo ” I have always known what they believe , but never really delved into it, no reason too. ” Debbie, your caught in a false system that can’t save you. We pray someday you will endeavor to understand Romans 9:32- 10:4. Paul is praying for Catholics in 10:1. Then read 10:9-10 and ask yourself how Roman Catholicism could ever say that to a person in light of your ” sacraments of the new law. Jesus isn’t a softer Moses with an easier law, He is the fulfilment of the law and eternal life. Conflating law and gospel has always corrupted faith at its core. And Rome has done just that. Read carefully what Eric W is saying. Scripture tells every believer to look out for unified many that say ” I am the Christ” and to beware of false Christ’s. Be careful what body you are a part of, a body with two heads is a monster. K

  174. ERIC W May 28, 2015 at 11:37 am
    Debbie, you wrote:
    It seems to me you are confusing being ‘Christ’ and being IN CHRIST.
    Response:
    “For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. – Matt. 24:5

    But not those whom He sent:
    Luke 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

    If you deny those who come to you in the name of Christ, you deny Christ.

    Matthew 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.

    Compare:
    1. In my name
    2.In Christ
    They cannot say “I am the Christ” without first coming in his name.

    But Jesus taught us how to discern the difference.

    John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
    21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

    The Catholic Church remains united, one Church in Christ. Whereas, the protestants divide and divide again.

    That’s one way they mislead with “I am the Christ.” Even Jesus said, “…if I testify on my own behalf…”
    Jesus answered, “Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. – John 8:14

    He was talking to the Jews in that verse. But Jesus taught His Church where He was going and where He was from:

    John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

    And He instructed us to do all things in His name:
    John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

    Just openly confess with John, saying, “I am not the Christ.” I believe that I’m not the Christ.

    Scripture tells us that we are one with Christ. When St. John was asked that question, he was not yet united to the Body of Christ. That is why Jesus said of him:

    Matthew 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

    Because those that were united to Christ were greater than John while he walked the earth.
    ————————
    I don’t recognize you because you have no need of me.
    The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” – 1Cor. 12:21
    The head needs me, and I need the head. Your head has no need of me; therefore, I have no need of your head.

    Because you are not of Christ. If you were of Christ, you would be a member of His Body and could say with confidence:

    Galatians 2:20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

    But you know, in your soul, that you have repudiated Christ when you repudiated the Catholic Church. Therefore, you are no longer a member of His Body.

    Romans 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

    Therefore, you are right in saying that we don’t need you. Since you are not a member of Christ’s body.

  175. Debbie, you wrote:
    This says volumes, I’m so sorry that someone told you they have no need of you.
    The Body of Christ needs you

    In what sense?

    It seems to me that Eric W. is playing upon your emotions and is about to spring the “Catholic Church considers itself exclusive” card. In other words, he’ll next try to convince you that the Catholic Church is evil and false because it doesn’t accept those who reject Her Teachings.

    But Scripture is clear:

    2 Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

    Now, I enjoyed reading your post on God’s love. Certainly, God loves us all. But God does not need any of us. We need Him.

    Its the same way with the Body of Christ. The Body of Christ loves us and those of us who are members of the body, love one another and are members one of the other. But should one of us turn against the body, in what sense is the body incapacitated until that person returns?

    Don’t confuse love and need. Frequently, human beings who love each other also need each other’s presence to reassure them of their love. But that is not the case with Godly love. The Church continues to love Eric W. The Body of Christ continues to love Eric W. But no one needs Eric W. except perhaps those human beings who need his financial support.

    Eric W. has turned against the Catholic Church. How does the Catholic Church need Eric W.

    But, perhaps I’m wrong. I’m ready to listen to your explanation of how or why the Body of Christ needs anyone at all? but especially someone who openly despises the Church as Eric W. does.

  176. Matteo,

    AS IF hearing the mass in English makes Sunday mornings a blast for youngster! Ha! I don’t have a problem with the vernacular.. I think most trads would happily keep the venacular so long as we got rid of the alter girls, communion in hand, communion without kneeling, eucharist ministers, etc. etc.

    It’s the general liturgy people love…. not just the fact that it’s in fancy latin.

    PS,

    Do you really think the average lay person understood latin for the last 1800 years?!? No way dude. Latin is the official language of the Church and every catholic knew what to expect no matter where on the planet they were at….. today it’s more like a tower of babel. Where is the tabernacle?!? Ohhh I dunno probably off to side somewhere. Why is there a praise bang with drummers and guitar players? Does this priest really stroll all around the place while giving homilies? Who is this lady handing out communion? Can she give blessings? It’s all a mess. Sure, there are still nice liturgies here and there, but on the whole the extraordinary form has it on lock for beauty, reverence, etc.

  177. De Maria wrote:
    But not those whom He sent:
    Luke 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
    If you deny those who come to you in the name of Christ, you deny Christ.
    Matthew 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.

    Response:
    You did a good job distinguishing the Apostles from the the many who say “I am the Christ.” Big deal.
    ——————————

    You wrote:
    But Jesus taught us how to discern the difference.
    John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
    21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

    Response:
    I agree that the “us” discerns if they are in fact believers. The reason I agree is because Eric W is one of “them also which shall believe on me through their word.” As a believer, I don’t recognize De Maria because you don’t need me.
    —————————–

    You wrote:
    Scripture tells us that we are one with Christ. When St. John was asked that question, he was not yet united to the Body of Christ. That is why Jesus said of him:
    Matthew 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
    Because those that were united to Christ were greater than John while he walked the earth.

    Response:
    And the least are so great compared to John that they don’t need to say “I am not the Christ.” Why don’t they need to say it ? They don’t need to say it because the CC says “I am the Christ.” Profound CC logic ! The REASON John didn’t say “I am the Christ” was because he wasn’t united to Christ AND the Body of Christ. His lack of union caused him to say “I am not the Christ !” See why I wrote this earlier:

    I wrote:
    I testify and confess with John, saying, “I am not the Christ.” Thank God John died before Jesus said, “This is my body.” If he lived, then many would make him a liar too.

    He who runs may read. De Maria is a manifest Antichrist misleading himself and many.
    ————————————

    You wrote:
    Therefore, you are right in saying that we don’t need you. Since you are not a member of Christ’s body.

    Response:
    Square your words with Debbie’s words…

    Debbie wrote to me:
    This says volumes, I’m so sorry that someone told you they have no need of you.
    The Body of Christ needs you
    —————————-

    Come on Catholics. Get your story together about Eric W. Is he in or out ? Needed or not needed ? Let me help answer it.

    …..I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him until that day. – 2Tim. 1:12

    If I said “I am the Christ” then I would be a liar like De Maria. He’s a liar because he says he believes and knows Christ. The worst lie is in his heart, saying, “I am the Christ.” If De Maria knew Jesus, then he would know me. The head needs me (1Cor. 12:21). But De Maria’s head rules, governs, and judges unjustly. Look at the tail of this head:

    De Maria wrote:
    The Catholic Church remains united, one Church in Christ. Whereas, the protestants divide and divide again.

  178. De Maria wrote:
    Eric W. has turned against the Catholic Church. How does the Catholic Church need Eric W.

    Christ was the first to turn against it. It doesn’t need Eric W and it would kill me during happier times.

    “For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. – Matt. 24:5

  179. De Maria,

    I think the best way to explain what I was trying to say when I wrote so briefly
    “This says volumes, I’m so sorry that someone told you they have no need of you.
    The Body of Christ needs you” is to contemplate what a human body really is.

    Eric (no W.) would get frustrated with me whenever I would start the long description of the actual human body or human blood. I had an epiphany many years ago (similar to one of those science fiction movies of traveling inside a human body in a small submarine) – of the mystical Body of Christ. It is so complex, so magnificent, so detailed, with every cell and organ moving with such purpose and precision. Ever see a PBS special about blood pumping through arteries and veins? One can look at human blood and see a red liquid, or see it for the miracle it really is and all it contains. You get the picture . . .

    Typically when Christians read from I Cor. 12:12 “Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ”, they think of themselves as being maybe the foot, or the eye, or the hand etc….
    but I sensed that those baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are only a single cell in Christ’s Body. This immediately renders us humble, small and completely dependent on that of which we are a part.

    To study the functions of the human body and how it fights infection, gets rid of waste, multiplies, grows etc… and to realize what the blood does, I believe gives a very accurate picture of what it means to be clothed in Christ.

    I was moved as a member of the Body of Christ to tell Eric W., that WE need him, he is welcome, and he has a very specific place – cells are being attacked, S.O.S we need some healthy ones in here!

    It would be just like Satan to tell him no, you don’t fit into that Body and no, you won’t really die without it. So for me personally, I tell everyone they are loved AND needed. (but then again I’m a seasoned Mom and it comes naturally).

    You are correct though, God doesn’t need any of us.

    But hey, He has us and we definitely were created with the need to be loved and needed (uh oh, does that mean we were created to work in love ????? because that really is what the need to be needed means – sorry OSAS and the rest)

    If a cell isn’t working it dies.

  180. Permit me to ramble a bit;

    St. Teresa of Avila heard our Lord tell her, “find yourself in Me”.

    Not understanding it well at first, she enlisted the aid of her close circle of friends and through letters, corresponded about the spiritual meaning of this. These letters are in volume 3 of the Collected works of St. Teresa of Avila. I was fascinated by what they contained and the humility of these brilliant holy men and women bantering (sometimes with humor) back and forth about the significance and purpose of finding ourselves in Jesus Christ.

    I went from surprise to confusion to humility and then peace when it was revealed to me where I was created to be. My place in the Body of Christ dictates what I am to do. Yes, I said, do.

  181. Hi Debbie,

    You seem to be equating “welcome” and “need”. Otherwise, I didn’t really find the answer to my question in that which you wrote.

    To say that he is welcome, if he ever repents of his hate towards the Catholic Church, is one thing. To say that the Catholic Church, the Body of Christ needs him, that’s quite another.

    I agree with the former. I don’t agree with the latter.

    Anyway, I don’t wish to continue disagreeing with Catholics. I know you have your heart in the right place. But I believe your mothering instincts are misplaced in this case. But then, we all have our gifts. Perhaps you can get through to him where the rest of us have failed.

    Good bye,

    Sincerely,

    De Maria

  182. To say that he is welcome, if he ever repents of his hate towards the Catholic Church, is one thing.

    Yes, “I have swept away your offenses like a cloud, your sins like the morning mist. RETURN to me, for I have redeemed you.” Isaiah 44:22

    “To say that the Catholic Church, the Body of Christ needs him, that’s quite another.”

    I didn’t say it very well, but I meant it more in the vein that it is essential for all the members of the Body of Christ to need to call Eric W. home. The Body must follow the Head.

    Good night, surely not Good bye,

    Debbie

  183. Never once did Mateo, De Maria or Debbie distance themselves from fulfilling the Lord’s words:

    “For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. – Matt. 24:5

    Nor did they show how it’s fulfilled without the Catholic Church. They relied on a distinction already present in the verse. To come in His name is what they did. Couple this lack of distance with the fact that they will not openly confess with John “I am not the Christ.” That’s just bizarre to see as a Bible believing Christian.

    Fred wrote:
    they won’t answer, we will have to assume they are the Christ

    It’s hard to avoid this conclusion. I still think it’s a neither affirm, nor deny thing. But it’s still hard. I’m beginning to see why the head needs me (1Cor. 12:21), and not them. I can boast in my openness:

    And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit. – 2Cor. 3:18
    ——————————

    Elect of God,
    Don’t be deceived by the craft or baptismal name. Each catholic is able to speak with the “I” for the many. I confounded their “I” with my challenge. Take a look…

    Debbie wrote:
    I was moved as a member of the Body of Christ to tell Eric W., that WE need him

    De Maria wrote:
    To say that he is welcome, if he ever repents of his hate towards the Catholic Church, is one thing. To say that the Catholic Church, the Body of Christ needs him, that’s quite another.

    I agree with the former. I don’t agree with the latter.

    Response:
    Debbie’s “I” spoke for the “We” as De Maria’s “I” disagreed with Debbie, “We” and most of all Me. Catchy.

    Fred, you know tunes. Is that tune ok ?

  184. Catholics, Eric W asked a simple question . You belong to an institution of the many who come in His name and say ” I am the Christ” Can DeMaria, Debbie , or Mateo step up and confirm or deny? Please. Bible Christians look to scripture as God’s infallible truth. You can identify with us by simply distancing yourself from this statement, ” I am the Christ” It shouldn’t be that hard to say I am not the Christ. K

  185. Eric W, catchy tune brother. let’s call it, the I We I We Me tap dance!

  186. Debbie and DeMaria said ” if Eric W repents of his hate towards the Roman Catholic church is one thing ” Spurgeon said, we are to pray against it each day, because it is against Christ. We are to pray that God ties a milestone around it and throws it to the bottom of the sea. Because it sounds Christ. It puts sacramental efficacy up in the place of the atonement, a mere sinner like ourselves in the place of Christ, a piece of bread up in the place of our savior, a few drops of water in the place of the Spirit. It’s the bound and duty to hate, though we shall love it’s people and not touch a hair on her Priest head. We are to turn our face to Christ when we pray, for it is against him. Eric W is just another faithful foot soldier unwilling the compost of what Rome has covered the cross. We unstack the pile so people can see Christ and be saved. K

  187. That should read because it wounds Christ, not sounds Christ.

  188. “On the contrary, Jesus said, “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.” Romans 12:20

    Reminds me of chemo treatment for a cancer.

  189. Eric W.,

    You seem to very proud (opposite of humble) and crow, “I confounded . . . ”

    There has never been any doubt about that. If I any of us understood you we we might be able to make headway. I tried to understand, but realized instead that you want to be glorified.

    Glory Be to The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.

    You are in my prayers (and not that you have a milestone tied around your neck for your destruction – not that I know what a milestone is)

    To think that you have undermined Catholics is a selfish presumption.

    We all know who are Head is, never a doubt about that.

  190. Debbie–

    “On the contrary, Jesus of Rome said, “If your enemy is hungry, call him an idiot. If your enemy is thirsty, call him a bigot. In all things, call him insane. In doing this, you will pour boiling lava on his head. Don’t fret, however, it’s for his own good.” (the epistle FROM Rome)

    Reminds me of the “therapy” they used to give the mentally ill: lock them up in tiny cages and let them wallow in their filth…oh, and feed them from time to time if you felt like it.

  191. Fred and Eric W,

    You can’t possibly expect anyone to dignify that silly little challenge with a serious response. Stop claiming we are the christ?!? Wtf are you even talking about?

  192. Kenneth–

    I’m with you. Not sure what they’re trying to say. Perhaps they’re just observing that Rome is a little too big for its britches. But then, that’s a no brainer. Most Catholics would probably agree with that, given the right qualifiers.

    On the other hand, only Rome makes pronouncements and then says, “Thus saith the Lord.”

    You are not the Christ, nor would you claim to be, but evidently you ARE his proxy.

  193. Eric,

    On the other hand, only Rome makes pronouncements and then says, “Thus saith the Lord.”

    You are not the Christ, nor would you claim to be, but evidently you ARE his proxy.

    Well, I think we would both agree that Christ left His Church on Earth. I guess the real difference is that Protestants deny that the church is authoritative, and Catholics don’t.

    Which, to be fair, you guys have to deny the authority of the church, otherwise how could you justify breaking from it… and breaking from it… and breaking from it… and breaking from it… Ad infinitum.

  194. Kenneth , hope you are well. You said ” you expect anyone to dignify that silly little challenge” First of all you would be an expert on dignity and the lack of it. But your just a follower and I get that. We had mutual respect and then you jumped in the gutter and called me a troll like the rest of your buddies. But let’s face it, we are all blog trolls according to Rome’s own rules. You all have a blog and an agenda. So when you come down from your dignified perch, there is room under the bridge. You, Stellman, Cross, Kauffman, my troll mates. Secondly, Jesus didn’t think it was ” a Silly challenge He said many will come claiming “I am the Christ” since the Roman Catholic church claims to be ” The Christ” , we are asking from its members to confirm this for their church and for themselves. To agree with John when he says ” I am not the Christ” maybe you can clear up this silly matter for us. Kenneth, are you one of the many who says ” I am the Christ” or with John saying I am not the Christ. Incidentally, being a fool is part of our paradigm. K

  195. Eric saiid – On the other hand, only Rome makes pronouncements and then says, “Thus saith the Lord.”
    You are not the Christ, nor would you claim to be, but evidently you ARE his proxy.

    Me – Eric says “OSAS, Sola Scriptura, baptism does not save, etc… So saith God!”

    Evidently you ARE God’s proxy.

  196. Eric, don’t be naive, no Catholic here can say what every bible believing Christian would say with John” I am not the Christ” Matthew 24: ” many will come in my name and say ” I am the Christ. The many are united brother. Maybe one RC can just step up and say like John, they or they’re church is not the Christ, and we can proceed. Jesus tells us not to listen to those who say ” I am He, I am the Christ. Catholics, Pantheiests, metaphysicalis, all comers can step up today and agree with John. That’s all God’s soldier Eric W is asking. Our head tells us to agree with John, and beware of the many. Eric, hug those triplets for uncle Kevin and wife. Love ya bro. K

  197. CK, Eric would agree with John, he isn’t the Christ. Quit changing the subject. Please CK, step up and clear up for us that you aren’t the Christ and that your church isn’t the Christ. Is that so hard . You can agree with John who said ” I am not the Christ” Jus say it. Or we are going to believe you are in the many that come and say ” I am the Christ”. Benedict said you are all one giant Eucharist. So, CK are you the Christ or not. K

  198. I’m still patiently waiting to find out when God the Father abandoned God the Son.

  199. DEBBIE May 29, 2015 at 10:34 am
    I’m still patiently waiting to find out when God the Father abandoned God the Son.

    Me – I’m still waiting on someone to show me which books belong in the bible using sola Scriptura.

  200. Kenneth wrote:
    Stop claiming we are the christ?!?

    Response:
    Close but no cigar…you neither affirm, nor deny. Jesus said that many will come in my name, saying, “I am the Christ.” No one disputes this, nor do they say the CC doesn’t come in His name. If I stop claiming, then we must silence Jesus because He said it first. I don’t think I can stop that sharp sword.

    Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. – Rev.19:15

  201. Debbie, are you really asking that question. How about when Jesus cried out My God, My God why have you forsaken me. You set aside the full blow of the crucifixion to support a metaphysical paradigm. The cross had one goal to take away sin. A perfect life had to be lived as the second Adam, the law had to be fulfilled, Christ had to hang on a tree and be sin to take the curse and wrath and penalty we deserve. 1Corinthians 1:30 said he became to us past tense, redemption, wisdom, righteousness, sanctification. No conditions. Repentance and faith are free gifts, not conditional. God wants no compulsory service. We are living out an acceptance we already have bought for us on the cross, you are living out to earn his acceptance. He paid it all in the one great event in history. It can’t get any more loving than our paradigm,psub. You reduce what He did, then call it full communion and love. It’s a lie. We are complete in Christ, lacking nothing pertaining to life and Godliness. K

  202. Debbie, you wrote:
    We all know who are Head is, never a doubt about that.

    Response:
    Good, doubt is a no no. Let’s be clear about your head and my head.

    Your head is subject to reform:

    First it declares that, legitimately assembled in the holy Spirit, constituting a general council and representing the catholic church militant, it has power immediately from Christ; and that everyone of whatever state or dignity, even papal, is bound to obey it in those matters which pertain to the faith, the eradication of the said schism and the general REFORM of the said CHURCH OF GO in HEAD and MEMBERS. [emphasis mine]

    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum16.htm

    My head brought reform:

    ….since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation. – Heb.9:10
    —————————–

    I need the head and the head needs me. Since you speak for “We,” do they really need me ?

  203. Sorry…should read CHURCH OF GOD…now GO be the Church

  204. First of all, you should at least cite whoever it is you are plagiarizing or at least give credit to the one that is writing for you (too too obvious).

    Secondly, I get what you believe.

    What I’m asking you is this: At what moment did God the Father abandon God the Son? When did this happen? It had to have happened at some point, because you do believe that the Father is in the Son – don’t you???

  205. Last comment wasn’t meant for Eric W., his got in before mine.

  206. I guess Jesus sacrifice was not enough since not everyone has the gift of faith. He died for some and not all.

    Not only that, but since God in your world can be evil how do you know He’ll keep His word on psub? The bible can be one big joke on Christians and the Gnostics might have the last laugh.

  207. CK, just buy a Protestant bible, all the books in it are God breathed. All the elect that I know who cane out of the Roman Synagogue studied Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, justification. The scripture gives individual believers a mandate to identify false teachers and keep ourselves from idols. My wife studied scripture and was delivered out of Greek Orthodoxy. She confronted the Priest with questions and He had no answers. Romans 11:6 was the verse he couldn’t square. If it’s by Grace , it is no longer by works, or Grace ceases to be Grace. She was gone. Can’t get around that one. K

  208. Eric W.,

    You can’t have the Head without we.

    Sorry about that.

    No one gets the Head without being a part of the Body.

    You are however kept in His Most Sacred Heart.

  209. Eric W said – Your head is subject to reform:

    Me – so is yours. Solo Scriptura.

    Church of Eric. Now GO be the Church!!!

  210. Lane, you wrote:
    Which, to be fair, you guys have to deny the authority of the church, otherwise how could you justify breaking from it… and breaking from it… and breaking from it… and breaking from it… Ad infinitum.

    Response:
    Many come in His name, saying, “I am the Christ.”

    The church in “the authority of the church” must be distinguished from the many who come in His name. BOTH come in His name. Perhaps, instead of breaking from it….and breaking from it, you justify staying with it…..and staying with it….and staying with it. What is IT you stay with ? Answer: The many who come in His name, saying, “I am the Christ.”

  211. CK, ” since God in your world can be evil” The God of the bible ordains all that comes to pass. God is good. When Job got all his stuff ripped of by evil men, he said the Lord giveth and takethq away. CK, plug into you tube amazing sermon on election by MacArthur and tell me what you think. Jesus was teaching in the Synagogue , and being admired, until he taught the passage on God sending in a 3 year phamon Elijah to one widow and one leopar , passing over 3000 widows and many leoper. The Jews in the Synagogue reacted like you, incensed. K

  212. Eric W said – Your head is subject to reform:
    Me – so is yours. Solo Scriptura.
    Church of Eric. Now GO be the Church!!!

    Antichrist Tu quoque lie. I believe that I am not the Christ. CK, who do people say I am ? Who are you ?

  213. fred May 29, 2015 at 11:54 am

    CK, just buy a Protestant bible, all the books in it are God breathed.

    Me – says who? Calvin? Luther? You?

    All the elect that I know who cane out of the Roman Synagogue studied Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, justification.

    Me – how do you know they are elect? Have they been judged already? Says who?

    The scripture gives individual believers a mandate to identify false teachers and keep ourselves from idols.

    Me – it doesn’t guarantee that you will not falsely identify false teachers. How do you know Calvin is not a false teacher? Money can be an idol. Do you live a life of poverty? If not then I’ve just identified you as an idol worshiper!!!

    My wife studied scripture and was delivered out of Greek Orthodoxy. She confronted the Priest with questions and He had no answers. Romans 11:6 was the verse he couldn’t square. If it’s by Grace , it is no longer by works, or Grace ceases to be Grace. She was gone. Can’t get around that one.

    Me – what the heck does this prove? Besides, based on how much you misrepresent people here it wouldn’t surprise me if you didn’t just make this up!

  214. Debbie, you wrote:
    No one gets the Head without being a part of the Body.

    Did you come in His name to say this ?

  215. Eric W May 29, 2015 at 12:10 pm

    Eric W said – Your head is subject to reform:
    Me – so is yours. Solo Scriptura.
    Church of Eric. Now GO be the Church!!!

    Antichrist Tu quoque lie. I believe that I am not the Christ. CK, who do people say I am ? Who are you ?

    Me – some people say you are my crazy uncle.

  216. Kev – reacted like you, incensed

    Me – im not incensed. This is a lie.

    You refuse to follow Jesus when he told them he was the bread of life and to eat his flesh. Just like those disciples who left Him.

  217. CK,

    I bet that crazy uncle never said, “I am the Christ.” But, if he’s catholic, then you are liar and the truth isn’t in you.

  218. Eric W May 29, 2015 at 12:20 pm

    CK,

    I bet that crazy uncle never said, “I am the Christ.” But, if he’s catholic, then you are liar and the truth isn’t in you.

    Me – he might have. He is crazy after all. But if Kevin is a Calvinist, then you are a liar and the truth isn’t in you.

    Whaaat?

  219. CK wrote:
    You refuse to follow Jesus when he told them he was the bread of life and to eat his flesh. Just like those disciples who left Him.

    Response:
    eat his flesh ?

    Is CK a member of his body ? Sure. (See De Maria for confirmation)

    Then CK eats the flesh of CK. (Jesus too)

    CK is the bread of life.

    Translation: I, CK, am the Christ

    Very easy stuff.

  220. Who is claiming: “I am the Christ”? Who is claiming to be the returned Christ mentioned in Matt 24 (I assume)? I don’t know what you are talking about.

    Who is leading Christians astray? The only people that I know that are leading people out of the Church instituted by Christ, leading them astray, are Protestants.

  221. CK, you wrote:
    But if Kevin is a Calvinist, then you are a liar and the truth isn’t in you.

    You never asked, “Who do people say I am ? ” That started the chain. I’m sorry….who are you ? Are you the Christ ?

  222. Lane wrote:
    Who is claiming: “I am the Christ”?

    Answer: Each Catholic heart.

  223. Eric W May 29, 2015 at 12:26 pm

    CK wrote:
    You refuse to follow Jesus when he told them he was the bread of life and to eat his flesh. Just like those disciples who left Him.

    Response:
    eat his flesh ?

    Is CK a member of his body ? Sure. (See De Maria for confirmation)

    Then CK eats the flesh of CK. (Jesus too)

    CK is the bread of life.

    Translation: I, CK, am the Christ

    Very easy stuff.

    Me – Is Eric W a member of the body of Christ? Sure.

    Then Eric W spiritually eats the body of Christ.

    Then Eric W sins and hurts the body of Christ.

    Translation: I, Eric W, am the Christ.

    Very easy indeed.

  224. CK, can you tell us what Jesus did on the cross for you? Thanks. Hoping for a straight answer. K

  225. CK, you wrote:
    Translation: I, Eric W, am the Christ.

    Response:
    Are you sure you want to do this ? Does this mean I’m one of the many who come in His name, saying, “I am the Christ ?” I really need to know if the Translation means that I come in His name…..

  226. fred May 29, 2015 at 12:39 pm

    CK, can you tell us what Jesus did on the cross for you? Thanks. Hoping for a straight answer. K

    Me – the irony of your request is astonishing but I’ll do it from your point of view, since what I think is worthless.

    Based on your belief it did nothing for me since I’m not elect. He died for some not all.

  227. CK , can you say with John you are not the Christ, yes or no. If you refuse to answer I will assume yes. K

  228. Straight Fred deserves a straight answer. I hope he gets it.

  229. I mean ill assume yes you are the Christ. K

  230. fred May 29, 2015 at 12:46 pm

    CK , can you say with John you are not the Christ, yes or no. If you refuse to answer I will assume yes. K

    Me – if you refuse to not represent Catholics I’ll assume you think you are the devil.

  231. Me – if you refuse to not represent Catholics I’ll assume you think you are the devil.

    meant not misrepresent.

  232. Catholics, we are waiting, where is Wosy when you need him. K

  233. Eric W – in case you haven’t noticed, I have not been following the original conversation and have no idea what you all are talking about. I’m being Eric W weird, because well I’m hoping you can see how silly you sound sometimes.

    I’ve had my fun and fed Kevin enough to feel wanted on this blog. This was my act of charity for today.

    Tchau!

  234. Catholics, is The church the same as Jesus in the world? Your refusal to identify with Eric as and I and John puts you in those who are the many who come in His name saying I am the Christ. Jesus tells us your false. K

  235. CK, I repeat….

    CK, you wrote:
    Translation: I, Eric W, am the Christ.

    Response:
    Are you sure you want to do this ? Does this mean I’m one of the many who come in His name, saying, “I am the Christ ?” I really need to know if the Translation means that I come in His name…..

    I have a real humdinger answer for you. I just need to know it means that to honor a fair trade agreement. Don’t leave me hang’n

  236. CK, scroll up and you won’t have to plead I’m lost in the conversation.

  237. All, notice, Catholics have been asked to identify with John saying I am not the Christ, and none of them can make this admission. Jesus said many will come in my name saying I am the Christ, don’t believe them. The Catholics along with their church is the false Christ’s Of Jesus warns. Bravo Eric W.

  238. All, notice, Catholics have been asked to identify with John saying I am not the Christ, and none of them can make this admission. Jesus said many will come in my name saying I am the Christ, don’t believe them. The Catholics along with their church is the false Christ’s Of Jesus warns. Bravo Eric W.

  239. CK doesn’t like it when the other side charges CK with: Antichrist Tu quoque lie.

    CK really hates it when the other side attempts to DEFEND the charge.
    ————————–

    Eric W weird = Courage

    One more lie from CK: I’m being Eric W weird

  240. Fred wrote:
    All, notice, Catholics have been asked to identify with John saying I am not the Christ, and none of them can make this admission. Jesus said many will come in my name saying I am the Christ, don’t believe them. The Catholics along with their church is the false Christ’s Of Jesus warns. Bravo Eric W.

    Straight talk from Fred.

    Fred,

    Call John and let’s meet for honey and locust. I have a new belt and clothes to try on.

  241. Eric W, game over. CK slips out the back door, and Lane and Debbie follow the her, one person , three names. No answer brother. Need we say more. K

  242. Say no more – Eric W

  243. I’m shocked that you are all serious about this…. but, uhhh… I am not the christ. My name is not Jesus. I’m ken winsmann. I am in the process of being saved by the Christ. At least I hope so…. depends upon how hard I can work and earn my seat in heaven. 😉

  244. CK–

    I don’t believe in OSAS. I don’t have a set opinion on baptism (mode, timing, sacramental effects) and neither does the NT. Thus, it would be difficult for me to pontificate on either one of these.

    Sola Scriptura lets God’s own voice have the final say. I don’t say, “Thus, saith the Lord.” HE does!

    The Roman Church, conversely, wants a piece
    piece of the action. It wants to be the sole proprietor of interpretation. One can faithfully exegete the Word of God Written in every way imaginable and still get things wrong, not having adhered to the decrees of Rome in lockstep fashion.

  245. Eric May 29, 2015 at 1:56 pm

    CK–

    I don’t believe in OSAS. I don’t have a set opinion on baptism (mode, timing, sacramental effects) and neither does the NT. Thus, it would be difficult for me to pontificate on either one of these.

    Sola Scriptura lets God’s own voice have the final say. I don’t say, “Thus, saith the Lord.” HE does!

    The Roman Church, conversely, wants a piece
    piece of the action. It wants to be the sole proprietor of interpretation. One can faithfully exegete the Word of God Written in every way imaginable and still get things wrong, not having adhered to the decrees of Rome in lockstep fashion.

    Me – out adhere to yourself only. YOU have the final say. You adhere to decrees of Eric and are in lockstep fashion with those who believe like you do.

    You do say saith the Lord based on your own private interpretation. The Lord speaking thru you. Everyone has a church with a pope. In your case you are the church and pope.

  246. Kenneth Winsmann May 29, 2015 at 1:25 pm

    I’m shocked that you are all serious about this…. but, uhhh… I am not the christ. My name is not Jesus. I’m ken winsmann. I am in the process of being saved by the Christ. At least I hope so…. depends upon how hard I can work and earn my seat in heaven. 😉

    Me – agree. It was fun. Felt like I was part of a Dr. Seuss book.

  247. Kenneth wrote:
    I am not the christ. My name is not Jesus. I’m ken winsmann.

    You are not far from the Kingdom.
    ——————-

    I was told that “My” in My body…My blood…. refers to us (the body). Also, “Christ says that we are His Body!”

    Taken together, they amount to “I am the Christ” (Matt. 24:5)

  248. CK wrote:
    Me – agree. It was fun. Felt like I was part of a Dr. Seuss book.

    Response:
    Notice how Ken didn’t come in Christ’s name to answer the charge. Ken identified himself in relation to the name without relying on the name. (like John) The many who come in his name rely on the name. This is why he’s not far from the Kingdom. Can you follow Ken’s lead and confess openly ?

  249. Eric W May 29, 2015 at 2:11 pm

    Kenneth wrote:
    I am not the christ. My name is not Jesus. I’m ken winsmann.

    You are not far from the Kingdom.
    ——————-

    I was told that “My” in My body…My blood…. refers to us (the body). Also, “Christ says that we are His Body!”

    Taken together, they amount to “I am the Christ” (Matt. 24:5)

    Me – This is what you all are talking about? Let’s try this..

    ACTS 9:3-5 3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” 5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”

    Using Eric W logic (Solo Scriptura) those being persecuted by Saul are Christ. Says it right there. Eric W is Christian. Those who persecute Eric W for following The Way persecute Jesus therefore Eric W is the Christ!

  250. CK wrote to Eric:
    Me – out adhere to yourself only. YOU have the final say. You adhere to decrees of Eric and are in lockstep fashion with those who believe like you do.

    You do say saith the Lord based on your own private interpretation. The Lord speaking thru you. Everyone has a church with a pope. In your case you are the church and pope.

    Response:

    Eric, feel free to disagree if needed. Eric has the final say. So what ? This Catholic charge is fading away. What if it was true ? The head needs Eric. (1Cor. 12:21) We see many Bible examples of disagreements coexisting in the body of Christ. I can see why the Lord needs Eric, and not CK. Eric’s like this…

    All of us, then, who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. – Phil. 3:15
    ————————-

    on your own private interpretation………….In your case you are the church and pope

    Do you know anything about being Catholic ? The Church and the Pope NEVER give a private interpretation. Don’t pluck some fig leaf either. It will not cover your shame. I meant the Pope as a public person. You meant it too.

  251. Who’s John?

    Can you copy paste what he said so I don’t have scroll past 150 fred postings?

  252. CK wrote:
    Eric W is the Christ!

    Response:
    If I said “I am the Christ” then I would be a liar like CK. He’s a liar because he says he believes and knows Christ. The worst lie is in his heart, saying, “I am the Christ.” If CK knew Jesus, then he would know me. The head needs me (1Cor. 12:21). CK’s head is subject to reform. See the Council of Constance.

  253. Eric W said – Do you know anything about being Catholic ? The Church and the Pope NEVER give a private interpretation. Don’t pluck some fig leaf either. It will not cover your shame. I meant the Pope as a public person. You meant it too.

    Me – if you know I meant public and typed private why the insult?

  254. CK,

    John the baptist. He was asked if he was the Christ. He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not the Christ.” – John 1:20

  255. CK, you asked:
    Me – if you know I meant public and typed private why the insult?

    I’m sorry if I insulted you. I don’t care if I’m right about this or not. Please accept my apology.

  256. Kenneth said ” depends how hard I have to work to earn my seat in heaven.” I got to hand it to you, you are one honest guy. On that treadmill of works righteousness to perfection. The go out and do your part gospel. Wow. Paul is praying for you in Romans 10:1. God bless. K

  257. CK, said ” based on what you say He did nothing for me, He only died for the elect. ” it doesn’t have to stay that way, you can believe the gospel of scripture and make your election sure Romans 4:16. K

  258. CK, what’s sad is you can’t even answer the question what Did Jesus do on he cross for you. How sad. Do you need Kenneth to answer for you. I’m not use you know what He did. K

  259. CK said ” you have the final say” ummm , so do you. You put you implicit faith in the Roman church, we put ours in the Word. But churches don’t save people, the Word does. K

  260. Fred,

    Tons of people have claimed to know what Christ did on the cross for them. You represent just one onterpretation in an ocean of theological opinion. Why should CK or anyone else care what you think? Has Christ appointed you to be the teacher of His divine words? If not, why so confident that you are able to impart such wisdom? Humble thyself peasant boy.

    Eric W,

    Obviously all those covered by God’s grace are in the body of Christ. Are you extrapolating that anyone who claims to be in said group is a heretic?

    Bring back Eric and robert. The B team is getting slaughtered out here.

  261. CK, you Lane and Debbie hate election and eternal security. It’s like cutting in line for y’all. I bet your going to give God hell about Christ hanging with those sinners and just handing them complete forgiveness as a gift by simply believing. That not fair your brothers the Pharisees said with you. How could God choose Jacob over Esau befor they had done anything good or bad. How could the tax collector go home righteous without doing one good work, how could the thief end up in heaven without doing the sacraments of the new law, and the Philippians jailer just believe and be saved. Why? Because to accept election, you have to renounce everything you were ever taught, and believe the gospel of scripture. John 3:16 says whoever believes has eternal life, and verse 17 says he won’t be judged. Kenneth said he is working hard to earn his seat in heaven. Is it any we why the Jews in the Synagogue and Catholics hate election and eternal security. K

  262. Kenneth said ” has Christ appointed you to be teacher of his divine words. ” Yes, scripture tells me I am a part of the Priesthood of believers, God’s cleras. 1 John 2:27 tells me I have an anointing from God , no need of a teacher, for his Spirit teaches me all things and they are true and not a lie. Doesn’t mean I don’t listen to my teachers, but in the end I have the Spirit of power. Dynamite. You may call me Paul Revere, here to warn you the British are coming. Why do you listen to your bishop gods? It’s just one opinion in a sea of opinions. K

  263. Kenneth, slaughtered? They haven’t even answered a question. But what would you know, your a drop in part timer with a big ego. K

  264. Kenneth, slaughtered? They haven’t even answered a question. But what would you know, your a drop in part timer with a big ego. K

  265. Fred,

    Interesting. Where was that scripture that says “fred aka kevin” is among the priesthood of believers? I’ve never read it. How do you know you aren’t putting yourself among them when in fact the scriptures don’t have kevin in mind?

    PS,

    Why would you listen to your teachers at all if you have the spirit teaching you ALL things? Seems kind of redundant to have teachers and preachers if the creator of the universe is beaming knowledge into your brain cells.

  266. Kevin,

    Let’s put your super powers to the test. Which portions of the gospels are authentic and which are scribal errors or later additions? Ask the Holy Spirit to beam that into your mind so we can know. If He doesnt…. well, now we just have another reason to doubt all this divine wisdom you want to push on everyone.

  267. FRED May 29, 2015 at 3:25 pm
    CK, said ” based on what you say He did nothing for me, He only died for the elect. ” it doesn’t have to stay that way, you can believe the gospel of scripture and make your election sure Romans 4:16. K

    Me – I already believe the gospel!!! I’m elect!!! I love election now!!!

  268. ERIC W May 29, 2015 at 3:04 pm
    CK, you asked:
    Me – if you know I meant public and typed private why the insult?
    I’m sorry if I insulted you. I don’t care if I’m right about this or not. Please accept my apology.

    Me- No apology necessary, but accepted nonetheless. It’s all good.

  269. ERIC W May 29, 2015 at 2:57 pm
    CK,
    John the baptist. He was asked if he was the Christ. He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not the Christ.” – John 1:20

    Me – ah ok. I think I see where you are going with this. Do you have a link to the Council of Constance?

  270. “Eric W, game over. CK slips out the back door, and Lane and Debbie follow the her, one person , three names. No answer brother. Need we say more. K”

    Kevin,
    You are deliberately lying.

    Deliberately lying, intentionally saying that 2 other people are me, people you don’t even know, innocent Christian men.. Why would you do that?

    Things like that use to make me cry.

    But now I just cry for your wife who you like to beat.

    I don’t even have to make up lies about you. I can easily tell the truth about all the lies you say about yourself.

    The truth is you are a very overweight unemployed depressed paranoid person who doesn’t have a dime to your name because you are too lazy to work. Your wife has to get up at 3:00 every morning and work 60 hour/weeks so that you can survive. You don’t have any friends left because they all end up hating you or mistrusting you. Unfortunately you were abused as a boy and that is the only life you have ever known, some type of abuse has manifested in you life for the past 50 years.

    How’s that for the truth?

    For every lie you spread about me, I can dole out dozens of sick sick truthful things about you. You will of course throw back in my face the one and only time I was dishonest with you – and it was because I was scared of you (imagine that)! I specifically and sorrowfully asked forgiveness for and you said you forgave me.

    You need help desperately.

    Enough to make anyone cry.

    Hopefully someone out there will reach out to you because I know what your wife prays for Kevin. She told many years ago, and she is still waiting.

  271. Its time for me to leave for a very long time.

    The backlash for facing a liar will be torrential I’m sure. I’m not leaving in fear, rather to focus on reparation for myself and many.

    Every word I spoke was truth, truth of evil in a person’s life that needs to be healed. No one living near Kevin has been able to help him. He is a shell of a wonderful, funny, passionate man.

    This internet blogging has him completely in slavery, but the silver lining is he is among God fearing people.

    I’ve enjoyed it and learned so much. I move forward in much faith, inspired hope and love that is only beginning to form me into who I was created to be.

    Peace to all of you.

  272. Ken said ” how do you know you aren’t putting yourself among them when in fact the scriptures don’t have Kevin and mind” with the Spirit by and with the Word of God. Let me show you how it works. God uses words to communicate to his children. Listen to John ” The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and the life is in His Son. These things have been written to you who believe in the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life. ” See, that wasn’t so hard. God made language, and the gospel a child could understand. Don’t need you bishop gods , or a secondary cause for that one. The testimony is in myself. 1 Peter 2:9 tells me I’m a royal Priesthood. Now that I located myself, maybe you can locate for me, your alter Christ, assumption of Mary, and a anecdotal system of accumulated inherent righteousness by meriting the merit of God. Thanks. K

  273. That should be a sacerdotal system of accumulated …..

  274. Ken , which part of the gospels are authentic and which are scribble errors.” All of scripture is infallible, God breathed. It the written Word of God. In the begging was the Word. Jesus was the incarnate Word and scripture is the written Word. It’s self authenticating by the fact that it’s God’s Word. You don’t need a mere sinner like ourselves (Pope) to tell you that , doo you Ken. I mean I know you guys read the book of John like a metaphysical essay, but God makes his Word clear. K

  275. Debbie, that’s the second time you said I beat me wife. You have no respect for her as a thinking person, and she knows it. You think my wife is just stupid in the corner who has her views because I beat her. Does it ever cross your mind you have been exposed to her for what you are.

  276. Debbie, I don’t have a dime in my pocket? What you don’t know is allot. And your talking about me being a little overweight. The last pictures I saw you got some junk in the trunk. Why the personal attacks all of a sudden. Knock it off.

  277. Kev,

    with the Spirit by and with the Word of God. Let me show you how it works. God uses words to communicate to his children. Listen to John ” The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself…… God made language, and the gospel a child could understand. Don’t need you bishop gods , or a secondary cause for that one.

    So you have superpowers that interpret the bible in such a way that says you are special…. I’m not impressed. Even if you have somehow convinced yourself that you are God’s special favorite with supernatural interpretive abilities how am I supposed to know that? I’m just supposed to take your word for it?

    The testimony is in myself. 1 Peter 2:9 tells me I’m a royal Priesthood. Now that I located myself, maybe you can locate for me, your alter Christ, assumption of Mary, and a anecdotal system of accumulated inherent righteousness by meriting the merit of God. Thanks.

    The testimony is in yourself?!? Lol give me a break dude. You read yourself into scripture because you have a burning in your bussom that promises you are the special? Garbage.

    Ken , which part of the gospels are authentic and which are scribble errors.” All of scripture is infallible, God breathed. It the written Word of God. In the begging was the Word. Jesus was the incarnate Word and scripture is the written Word. It’s self authenticating by the fact that it’s God’s Word. You don’t need a mere sinner like ourselves (Pope) to tell you that , doo you Ken. I mean I know you guys read the book of John like a metaphysical essay, but God makes his Word clear. K

    Yes I understand that scripture is inspired. Now if you would be so kind, please tell me which portions of scripture are authentically from the apostles and which are not? For example, John MacArthur and RC Sproul claim they have the same super powers as you…. yet they seem think that the “long ending of mark” isn’t authentic. Use your super powers and get back with me.

  278. Debbie said ” how’s that for the truth. ” it’s not the truth. My wife and I have more money then we will ever need. She doesn’t have to work, she loves her job. And I have always treated you with respect. We had a tough time. I only wish it could have happened years ago. Because when I lifted the lid, the real stuff came out. You can have your blog back.

  279. Ken , I don’t have super powers, just the Spirit by and with the Word of God. K

  280. Ken, that’s what the verses I provided said, the testimony is inside me. 1 John 2:27, 5:10-13. Instead of arrogant dismissal , deal with the verses. K

  281. Ken, does the ending of Mark change the fact that the Word is infallible. Does it change the fact that John says we have the anointing of the Spirit to understand God’s word. Can a child not understand John 3:16. It doesn’t mean all the scripture is easy. But it does mean God communicates his truth through the Word and has made it for us to understand. Not perfectly. We are to meditate on it day and night. He gave it to us. We are all fallible, even Popes. We work hard and pray for understanding, and God helps us understand his Word. God bless. I’m out of here for good. K

  282. Damn. Kind of rough that Debbie put kev on blast like that! I would leave if I were you too. That’s pretty damn embarrassing for a super hero like yourself.

  283. Can we get the moderators to please delete Debbie comments? Super low blows that shouldn’t be made public. I’ll email jason if I have to do so

  284. I sent jason an email and requested that the comments be removed incase anyone was wondering.

  285. +JMJ+

    Debbie, don’t leave, please. We like you here. Just try to ignore the troll. Oh … and just try to remember that Everybody is Debbie.

    Debbie is Everywhere (sung to the tune of “Elvis is Everywhere”)

    Debbie is everywhere
    Debbie is everything
    Debbie is everybody
    Debbie is still the king

    Man o man
    What I want you to see
    Is that the big D’s
    Inside of you and me

    Elvis is everywhere, man!
    She’s in everything.
    She’s in everybody…

    Debbie is in your jeans.
    She’s in your cheeseburgers
    Debbie is in Nutty Buddies!
    Debbie is in your mom!

    She’s in everybody.
    She’s in the young, the old,
    the fat, the skinny,
    the white, the black
    the brown and the blue people got Debbie in ’em too

  286. Debbie,

    This not in order of importance and you may not care to hear my thoughts….

    1) don’t go. I enjoy your beautiful/poetic writing. I’ve mediated over some of your posts. You have a gift.
    2) I understand your frustration with Kev accusing you of being me and whoever else. It also seems he’s reserved a very dark place in his heart for you. That being said, your comment was very personal and over the top.
    3) I wish he was still banned. He seems to bring the worst out of people with his insults, hateful comments and continuous misrepresentations. No wonder he’s also been banned from other sites. He’s not here to dialogue.
    4) not sure if people can be put on ignore but if not, just skip over his comments. I skip over 95% of his comments. If he gets to you, just offer it up.

    Take a break if you must, but please come back.

    YBIC
    CK

  287. Debbie,

    Don’t go! You are my hero.
    As for Kenneth’s letter to Jason in defense of “Kev” ( Mr. Trolloni ), don’t worry. Jason has checked out . He is busy elsewhere and has abandoned his blog to the troll.
    Jason and Kenneth don’t seem to have no outrage against “Kev” slurs against the Blessed Sacrament. While they “disagree with what he says, they defend to the death Trolloni’s right to say it”.

    Tell us more about “Kev”. I like it. I find your ire refreshing. I am disgusted by the indifference the Catholic converts on this blog have for slurs against Christ in the Blessed Sacrament. Screw them. Stick around.

  288. Deb,

    If Kenneth’s letter in defense of Kelvin Trolloni actually moves Jason to come out of hibernation and actually pay attention to his blog long enough to slap your little wrists for casting aspersions on the troll good name ( HA! You do realize I am jesting ) don’t worry, even if he bans you.
    Just change your name to “Babe” or “Dixie” “Trixie” and keep posting. Disregard the wimpy bog rules as they have no power of enforcement.
    Look, Trolloni was banned for eternity. But he reared his ugly head again. And again. And again. He wouldn’t stay away despite promises to do so. He knew if he kept popping back up he would eventually wheedle his way back into hearts and minds. It worked.
    If it worked for the troll, it will work for you too,

  289. Kenneth,

    Excuse me Miss, but your double standard is showing.

  290. Debbie,

    Here’s what I think the problem is:
    Certain converts to the catholic Church have never been on the receiving end of anti-Catholicism. For sure, they may have dished it out during their time as Protestants but they have never been bullied, heckled or insulted for being Catholic.
    Their conversion was more intellectual than visceral.
    Don’t get me wrong. I admire people who read and study their way into the Faith. I never became a Catholic that way. God knows I am too stupid and rebellious for that.
    No, I did not study my way into the Church. I was raised in it. My mother taught me my prayers. I wore salt and pepper cords and a blue sweater as was the norm back in the 50s and 60s. Our dress marked us out, made us easy targets as we walked to and from school. It didn’t make saints out of us but it sure made us sensitive to the “Kevs” of the world.

    Four days ago, on my train commute to work, I picked up one of the free newspapers on the train. This particular one was by a local evangelical church called the Igreja Universal Reino de Deus. Like the JW mag, it is mostly stuff lifted from other periodicals on health, movies, sports, etc. I read it just to pracise my Portuguese.
    Anyway, I got to the last page and was dumbfounded to see a full page article taken from Jack Chick. In the article, Alberto Rivera says that there are millions of skeletons of dead babies under the convents of Spain. He says the convents were brothels for the clergy and after a nun gave birth to an illegitimate child, it was murdered to hide the evidence.

    Debbie, I was educated by nuns. I love nuns. I am friends with nuns now. An adult convert probably can’t understand why I was immediately outraged.
    I got off the train and huuffed and ouffed my fat up a hill to the Protestant church and stomped inside and into the office. I demanded an explanation. I didn’t try to reason with the guy at the desk. I didn’t quote the Bible. I merely called it what it is, “Mentiras!”.

    Kenneth and Jason are intellectuals, egg heads. Slurs like “Death Wafer” and “Hocus Pocus” mean nothing to them. They probably used the same rhetoric at one time. They may not even have any devotion the the Eucharist other than a scholarly one. I can’t really say. But judging by their indifference to Trolloni’s slurs, I don’t see how they could even have an intellectuall understanding of just what and WHO the Blessed Sacrament is.

  291. CK,

    ” I wish he was still banned. He seems to bring the worst out of people with his insults, hateful comments and continuous misrepresentations. No wonder he’s also been banned from other sites. He’s not here to dialogue.”

    Please copy and paste this to Jason to balance out Kenneth’s wicked defense of the troll and ugly attack on Debbie.

  292. Kenneth, you wrote:
    Obviously all those covered by God’s grace are in the body of Christ. Are you extrapolating that anyone who claims to be in said group is a heretic?

    Bring back Eric and robert. The B team is getting slaughtered out here.

    Response:
    Matt 24:5 tells us about Antichrists who come the name of Jesus, the Christ. They say “I am the Christ” in their heart. Just like a fool says in his heart, etc. How and what they give by word and deed is mixed with truth according to a good appearance, i.e. they come in his name. They are trying to be like the Apostles who were chosen, sent and called by his name. The Apostles did come in his name.

    Distinguishing spirits is the task before us. The same goes for the so-called Catholic.

    Eric and Robert form the A Team. But A and B are members needed by the head. (1Cor. 12:21) A and B honor the Father and the Son, but you dishonor the B team. If you were one us, then you would recognize A needs B and B needs A.

  293. CK, you wrote:
    Me – ah ok. I think I see where you are going with this. Do you have a link to the Council of Constance?

    Thx….

    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum16.htm

    Session 5

  294. Kenneth, you wrote to Kev:
    So you have superpowers that interpret the bible in such a way that says you are special…. I’m not impressed. Even if you have somehow convinced yourself that you are God’s special favorite with supernatural interpretive abilities how am I supposed to know that? I’m just supposed to take your word for it?

    Response:
    Why the unjust demand ? If anyone had superpowers to do that, they will not be able to IMPRESS you by definition. You determined in advance that “things related to the bible, interpretation and superpowers” are unseen; therefore, impressions are out the window. I wonder if there’s sight in identifying things as “unseen.

    how am I supposed to know ? What if I answered with a subjective, infused habit from God. Will that remove you from the same subjective problems you raise ? or the same subjective problems you use for self-tyranny ?

  295. Debbie, you wrote:
    I’m not leaving in fear, rather to focus on reparation for myself and many.

    Response:
    Before you go, please tell me if you are going in His name to focus on reparation for yourself and many ? I want to make sure you don’t mislead the many.

    “For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. – Matt. 24:5

    I may want you to stay if it’s safer for the “many” out there.

  296. Jason and Jonathan,

    I don’t know whom to address my comment to as you both pass the buck to the other one when it comes to just who wears the pants on this blog ( personally, I think Mr. Trolloni does ).

    It is only a matter of time before somebody steps up to the plate and decides enough is enough and moves the blog to moderation mode. That is when it will be me who is given the the bum’s rush off the blog.
    Until then, Mateo’s pleas for Catholics to act like adults and just scroll past the troll’s rantings have shown themselves to be nothing more than the pathetic and impotent whimperings for mercy from a rabid troll who has this blog by the…er…um… by the short hairs, and is not about to relinquish his grip any time in the foreseeable future.
    And why should he? He has moved right in and taken over with very little resistance. To the victor go the spoils, right?
    He has the Catholics either leaving the blog, reduced to using uncharitable remarks and/ or clawing at each others’ throats. He, Eric and Tim Kauffman must be laughing their heads off in their private emails to eachother.

    Over on Buggers All, James Swan got rid of a certain pesky Catholic troll named Guy Fawkes who kept badgering him as to why he uses the term “Mariolatry” in lieu of “Mariology”. He did it by simply clicking on the button that says, “moderation”.

    On Green Bigots, moderator Reed has a block on yours truly for incessantly dogging him to delete out Kelvin Trolloni’s post on the “Death Wafer”. He did it with one finger. He just made a click with his mouse and that made short work of me badgering him to block out uncharitable slurs.

    You guys are going to have to do the same to dump me. I ain’t going peacefully into the night.

    Be warned however. I have learned from Trolloni how to fly under your radar and keep coming back like the bad penny you think I am.

    I have gone through a list of phoney names and have pretty much picked one out.

    After being blocked, I am coming back to haunt this blog non-stop under the pen name of Father Patrick O’Malley O.P., Tim Dolan, Sean Kelly or Seamus O’Toole. I aint’ saying which. I am going to turn on my best “Darby O’Gill and the Little People” brogue and write,
    ” Now Jason lad, remember when you were received into Holy Mother the Church, you made some Confirmation vows. You were given seal that marked you out as a soldier for our Blessed Lord, Jesus Christ. That means you shouldn’t be a lettin’ every son of a bitch on the internet wipe their feet on the Blessed Sacrament or your Mother the Church”.

    When you wake up to the fact it is yours truly under that Roman collar and darlin’ brogue, you will block me again.
    All to no avail. I will just select another moniker keep coming back until you dump the other troll too.

  297. Jim wrote:
    ….you think I am.

    Response:

    Yes, I wrote this out of context. It’s a sample, a perfect one I might add. The many of Matt. 24:5 protect the catholic eucharist. Jim, with the support of the many, will defend his inheritance rights. He will lay full claim to “I am the Christ.” The who…what…when…where…why…and sometimes how of YOU THINK I AM is a full-blown war on Jim. Jim says in his heart, “I am the Christ.” The false god called the eucharist is animating him in real time. I have warned you.

    I hope Jim’s heart and mind are tied down to this stuff. It gives me hope to think the Lord is correcting his own through this correction of sin. Repent Jim and taste the sweetness of his correction. Love hopes all things. Look at how much he loves his god.

  298. Oops. I missed Jason’s earlier email, but I’m happy to block and (more importantly) delete comments assuming that we can work out the technical hurdles.

  299. Kenneth,

    Ever notice how many times “Kev” has aired Debbie and her husband’s private feud with him on this blog? When it comes to the troll embarrassing Debbie or raking her and her husband over the coals for stuff totally unrelated to this blog, you have kept silent and looked the other way. You have never deemed it an imperative to take it “to the top” with a letter to Jason.
    But now that the poor woman has decided to fight back, you are calling for her to be burnt at the stake.
    Explain this disparity please?

  300. Catholic Friends of the Troll,

    You know, we only have one week to go before a beautiful feast day takes place. Please remember when you go to Mass on Corpus Christie that you defend calling the Host a “Death Wafer” on this blog.
    So, have a blessed feast day.

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