Trinity, Incarnation, and Participation

Posted by on December 1, 2013 in Advent, Catholicism, Christmas, Deification, Early Church Fathers, Eucharist, Featured, Gospel, Incarnation, Mary, Paradigms, Protestantism, The Trinity | 712 comments

In my last post on advent and the Incarnation, I mentioned that the entire Catholic gospel is focused on the ontological participation that the believer enjoys with the holy Trinity, by means of the Eucharistic flesh of Christ, alluding to the oft-quoted idea found in so many of the church fathers that God became man so that man could become God.

An objection was raised to this idea due to its alleged inconsistency with monotheism: If there is only one God, how can human beings become gods as well?

This question really gets to the heart the matter concerning just how bizarre and obviously unbiblical certain Catholic teachings appear to non-Catholics. In a word, what it comes down to is participation, and this idea of participation is rooted in the the doctrines of the Trinity and the Incarnation.

Whether knowingly or not, Protestants often have a zero-sum-game view of God’s saving dealings with his people. If Jesus’ self-offering was sufficient, then the idea that our sacrifices merit salvation detracts from his work of atonement. If Christ is the sole Mediator between God and man, then the idea that we’re to invoke the prayers of the Blessed Virgin takes away from his Mediatorship. And if there is only one God, then our “becoming God” threatens his unique divinity.

Here’s the thing, though: If God is by his very nature a Father who eternally generates a Son with whom he shares his own essence, and if God graciously adopts as sons and daughters into the divine Family sinners whom he re-creates in the image of Christ our elder Brother, and if, as he does with the divine Son, the Father shares his riches and life with us his adopted children, then the objection that our participation in uniquely divine activities eclipses God’s prerogatives should completely vanish.

God grants us a share and participation in the priesthood of Christ, which is why we, as royal priests, can offer prayers and sacrifices on behalf of others. The entire communion of saints, including Mary, can participate in the work of intercession, not because they are upstaging Jesus or stealing his spotlight, but because that’s what the gospel, when viewed through Trinitarian lenses, is all about.

That’s why it is not a threat to God’s unique divinity to say with the early fathers that “we become God,” that the Son participated in our human nature so that, through his glorified humanity, we might participate in God’s divinity. If God is a Father and Jesus is an Incarnate Son, then this is pretty much what we should expect the gospel to be.

I mean, when my own earthly son mimics me, exhibits my own traits, and learns to do some of the things I do, I beam with paternal pride, not seethe with petty envy.

 

712 Comments

  1. Eric, i understand but you can’t be baptized or be be counted among the elect unless you do a years worth of works. They try to get around it by saying in the preliminary period the person has actual grace to help. Would God prohibit anyone from being numbered among the elect.

  2. Dennis, change your tone man. Your talking a lot of love but you aint given me none of it. Don’t be arrogant you can’t explain exactly what Paul is saying.

  3. Dennis, what are you talking about. What do you mean we can’t resolve it in our Reformed paradigm. We believe we have been crucified with Christ and we no longer live but Christ lives in us ( thru his spirit). Then he says nevertheless i live and the life which i now live in the flesh i live by FAITH in the son of God. First of all he admits he is still in the flesh. All you Catholic bros trying to escape your nature and jump in to traffic in the divine, take note. You got bit with the snake to man. Look at the way you treat me. And you should make note Dennis the menace the live he lives, he lives by faith. What i was trying to explain is Paul is trying to explain this and he wrote the words God gave him, but he is a sinful man trying to understand it and figure it out like us. How exactly does Paul’s statement fit the Catholic teaching? I can’t wait to hear this from one of the dudes thats fused to the trinity. Please explain.

  4. KEVIN January 10, 2014 at 4:05 am
    DeMaria, In Jude it is very clear ” T he faith once and for all delivered to the saints.”

    Of course. Once delivered. But how was it delivered? Was it by Scripture? Or was it by the teaching of the church? Let’s see what Scripture says.

    Matthew 24:14
    This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

    1 Peter 1:12
    It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look.

    Therefore, the word of God is passed down by word of mouth. It is preached. It is passed down by Sacred Tradition.

    Revelations says don’t add one word.

    The Church explains the Word of God. She doesn’t add to it. You sit there claiming to explain Scripture. In so doing, if we follow the same logic, you are adding to Scripture.

    Right and someone corrected you Luther.

    Luther corrected no one. Luther twisted the word of God and all we can do is pray that it did not lead to his destruction and the destruction of all who follow him.

    Read my posts to Dennis. Roman salvation is an incomplete and fragile condition of the soul.

    Catholic salvation is precisely that which is explained in Scripture.

    Scripture says:

    1 Corinthians 4
    New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    Servants of Christ

    3 But to me it is a very small thing that I may be examined by you, or by any human court; in fact, I do not even examine myself. 4 For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord. 5 Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men’s hearts; and then each man’s praise will come to him from God.

    You can never know your saved.

    Actually, the Council of Trent says that a man can know he is saved if he receives a special revelation from God.

    Because your salvation depends on your good works and merit.

    Our salvation depends on God. Your salvation depends on your claim of being saved by faith alone.

    Always working and always earning more grace.

    We work, because God works. through us.

    Philippians 2:12-13
    New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure

    Hebrews 4:10 ” For the one has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works.”You attain your salvation through your cooperation and good works. We rest after having entered his rest by faith. and we follow Paul’s command ” for the righteous shall live by faith.” He doesn’t say for the half righteous will work like a beaver to get there. No he calls us righteous and says rest in it.

    You just contradicted yourself. You said that your works follow your justification. Therefore, you don’t rest.

    But we do. Because the rest that we are talking about occurs in heaven.

    You didn’t really say that Catholic teaching is the foundation for the New testament did you.

    Yes.

    The Gospel establishes the church not the other way around.

    Jesus Christ established the Church. Jesus Christ taught the Gospel. Jesus Christ commanded the Church to teach the Gospel.

    That’s how it happened. The Gospel is the preaching of the Church.

    No one ever said that faith does not produce good works. But those works aren’t meritorious in justification.

    As I showed you, St. Augustine said so.

    The Catholic church makes the condition of salvation partly merit and good works.

    God does that. The Catholic Church merely teaches God’s will.

    I mean thats what the whole argument is . You guys act like the argument isn’t there.

    Which guys? I’m the one telling you that is what the Catholic Church teaches. Unless you keep the commandments, you are not saved.

    Matthew 19:17
    New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.

    Look at your interpretation of verse 24. Blasphemy.” Be justified as a gift by his grace” doesnt mean those who obey get justification.

    Yes it does. Those who obey, will receive the gift.

    I hope everyone reads your post.

    I do also. I also hope that they compare your messages to Scripture alongside mine. I am confident that they will find mine in accordance with Scripture. While finding that yours contradict Scripture.

    It is so instructive to Romanist thinking. The verse says it is a gift.

    Gifts can be conditional. My children received gifts because they graduated from school. And if they had not graduated from school they would not have received the gifts. Salvation is conditional. That is clear from Scripture.

    IIf god gave grace as a response to a human action or an ability it would be a reward not a gift.

    Hebrews 11:6
    New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

    WOW man your complete butchering of 3:24 says it all.

    On the contrary, it is you who is butchering Scripture.

    Sincerely,

    De Maria

  5. ERIC January 10, 2014 at 6:46 am
    De Maria–
    Sorry, guys. I’ve got triplets to take care of, and I’m going to have to reply in sound bites.

    You might want to get back to it when you can concentrate.

    You said:
    “[F]aith that produces good works, MERITS justification.”

    That is correct.

    It is this type of imprecision which has long confused things between us.
    For Catholics, the believer’s faith (plus the [grace-enabled] works it produces) merits justification.

    That is correct.

    For Protestants, Christ’s grace [through the instrument of the gift of faith, which in turn produces good works] merits justification.

    You are splitting hairs. For the Catholic, ALL is grace. Everything. The shirt on your back, the ground you walk on, the food you eat, the work which you do, the faith which you have, all is grace.

    So, the mistake the Catholic makes, in our eyes at least, is to not see everything coming from us as derivative: it is all gift; it is all grace.

    The difference is, that Protestants don’t understand that some gifts are conditional. The grace of salvation is conditional. The condition is that you live a godly life, repent of your sins, and keep the Commandments.

    If that is not true–if, as Jason has admitted a time or two, even our faith, our good works, our cooperation with grace are all completely gracious (i.e., the Spirit is sovereignly responsible for their ever even happening)–then you have agreed with Protestants on JBFA. (For you really only have two consistent, coherent choices: works righteousness or JBFA.)

    You’re so embarrassed by that false doctrine, you can’t even bring yourself to say “justification by faith alone”. Justification by faith alone is not a choice. It’s an error.

    You’re mistaken about something else. Although, the doctrine is called justification by faith and works, it doesn’t mean that we justify ourselves. It means that God justifies those who by faith accomplish his works.

    Romans 2:13
    New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

  6. Kevin–

    I have heard many a Catholic portray the Mass as a re-presentation or re-application of the same sacrifice. Bryan Cross, on Jason’s thread “A Once-for-all Perpetual Offering” calls it a “participation” in the same sacrifice (and rather than define “participation,” he more-or-less says its meaning is beyond us Protestant peons). Trying to get them to be specific on its meaning, I’m sure you’re aware, is like trying to nail jello to the wall.

    I went back and re-read Trent on the sacrifice of the Mass. You do appear to be correct. The Eucharist is a separate sacrifice from the Cross: same victim but different offering in a different manner [unbloody rather than bloody] yet nonetheless propitiatory. The text does not appear to be compatible with Bryan Cross’s interpretation, though I am sure he must have an explanation (I mean, doesn’t he always?):

    “And forasmuch as, in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the mass, that same Christ is contained and immolated in an unbloody manner, who once offered Himself in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross; the holy Synod teaches, that this sacrifice is truly propitiatory and that by means thereof this is effected, that we obtain mercy, and find grace in seasonable aid, if we draw nigh unto God, contrite and penitent, with a sincere heart and upright faith, with fear and reverence.”

    By the way, if Catholics are supposedly drinking the true blood of Christ, how is the sacrifice “unbloody”? (I assume it has to do with feeding on the whole Christ under either species.) The same thing could, of course, be asked of magisterial Protestants: is the Eucharistic Sacrament bloody or unbloody? I’m guessing we would have to answer unbloody, as well, for Christ is physically whole and present in heaven. Nevertheless, the Blood of Christ is offered to us in the cup.

  7. De Maria–

    The Pelagianist can say the exact same thing as you:

    For the Pelagianist, ALL is grace. Everything. The shirt on your back, the ground you walk on, the food you eat, the work which you do, the faith which you have, all is grace.

  8. ERIC January 10, 2014 at 7:14 pm
    De Maria–
    The Pelagianist can say the exact same thing as you:
    For the Pelagianist, ALL is grace. Everything. The shirt on your back, the ground you walk on, the food you eat, the work which you do, the faith which you have, all is grace.

    Wrong Eric. You need to wait to respond when you have time to focus. Pelagianism is the heresy which claims not to need God’s grace in order to be saved. It is truly a works salvation theology. The Catholic Church condemned Pelagianism.

    Sincerely,

    De Maria

  9. ERIC January 10, 2014 at 7:11 pm
    Kevin–
    I have heard many a Catholic portray the Mass as a re-presentation or re-application of the same sacrifice. Bryan Cross, on Jason’s thread “A Once-for-all Perpetual Offering” calls it a “participation” in the same sacrifice (and rather than define “participation,” he more-or-less says its meaning is beyond us Protestant peons). Trying to get them to be specific on its meaning, I’m sure you’re aware, is like trying to nail jello to the wall.

    Participation in the Mass? It means that we consume the Offering. Let me explain. Jesus Christ is our “Passover sacrifice.” Have you read in Scripture:

    1 Corinthians 5:7
    Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

    In the Old Testament, when the Passover lamb was sacrificed, the Jews participated by eating the lamb.

    Exodus 12:4
    And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb.

    In the New Testament, we participate by eating the sacrifice.

    1 Corinthians 5:7-8
    King James Version (KJV)
    7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, ….

    1 Corinthians 5:7-8
    New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    7 Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us celebrate the feast,

    1 Corinthians 11:26
    King James Version
    For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.

    New American Standard Bible
    For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes.

    That is how we participate in the once for all Offering of Jesus Christ. By consuming the Offering.

    In the New Testament, there is an added element which I don’t think existed in the Old. We offer ourselves in the Offering, because we are the Body of Christ:

    Galatians 2:20
    King James Version
    I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

    1 Cor 10:17
    17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

    Do you understand “participation” now?

    I went back and re-read Trent on the sacrifice of the Mass. You do appear to be correct. The Eucharist is a separate sacrifice from the Cross: same victim but different offering in a different manner [unbloody rather than bloody] yet nonetheless propitiatory. The text does not appear to be compatible with Bryan Cross’s interpretation, though I am sure he must have an explanation (I mean, doesn’t he always?):

    “And forasmuch as, in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the mass, that same Christ is contained and immolated in an unbloody manner, who once offered Himself in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross; the holy Synod teaches, that this sacrifice is truly propitiatory and that by means thereof this is effected, that we obtain mercy, and find grace in seasonable aid, if we draw nigh unto God, contrite and penitent, with a sincere heart and upright faith, with fear and reverence.”
    By the way, if Catholics are supposedly drinking the true blood of Christ, how is the sacrifice “unbloody”? (I assume it has to do with feeding on the whole Christ under either species.)

    Unbloody simply means the blood is not visible. It is offered under the guise of wine. But what appears to be wine has been transubstantiated into the blood of Christ.

    1 Corinthians 10:15-17
    King James Version (KJV)
    15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.

    16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

    17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

    the same ….

    -snip-

    Sincerely,

    De Maria

  10. De Maria, The grace of salvation is conditional? Ephesians 2:8 ” for by grace you have been saved through faith,it is not that of yourself, it is a gift the gift of God, not a result of works, lest any man should boast.” sounds unconditional to me. You must have passed over this verse in your study. Stop boasting! Its got nothing to do with your works. That road according to Paul in Galations will find outer darkness.

  11. Eric, DeMaria just told you in a post that salvation was conditional. I cited Ephesians 2:8. The veil hasn’t been lifted Eric. Im so thankful that the reformers came to dispense of the this false system and ecclesiastical machinery that largely human in origin and concept. They say 70% of RC don’t know that the mass is a twisted sacrifice of our savior. It is the summit because its where they can constantly go and perform a work and merit more justice for them and all the dead. because it also efficacious of Aunt Milly. Because see when you can take the selling into purgatory, more money. How clever is this system. They still buy masses for the dead. my best friend who i lead to Christ and he ran back to RC once told me ” you know the mormonism and the Catholic church are a lot alike. How prophetic!

  12. DeMaria, you said the church explains the word of God, and docent add to it. I’m laughing. Cardinals, Popes, scapulars, masses, sacramental efficacy, mediator Mary, veneration of angels, prayers to the dead, 7 sacraments, indulgences, assumption of Mary, immaculate conception, etc. All fictitious worship, nowhere in scripture. If the RC is infallible about anything is being fallible. Who should we trust the Pope in 1420 that killed Joan of Arc as heretic, the next Pope who pardoned her, or the one who 40 years later made her a saint the men who went to the council of Nicea would recognize nothing of the RC today.

  13. DeMaria, for those of us trusting Christ alone we all got a special revelation from God on knowing your saved. Romans 5:1 and 1 John 5:13.

  14. DeMaria, Romans 4:5 ” to the one WHO DOES NOT WORK.”

  15. Eric, I want to call this DeMaria guy an idiot but I’m going to hold off. Did he just say to you in a post that some free gifts are conditional. This is what we are dealing with. i mean come on man. He must have meant reward.. Because they have made a savior out of merit and inherent grace.

  16. Eric, i guess since the people are prohibited from participating in the drinking in the mass, this is unbloody. All those people in the Corinthian church drinking the cup were priests. HA!

  17. De Maria–

    Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but the Pelagians did not totally discount a role for grace. On the contrary, they redefined “grace.” Coelestius, one of the better known early Pelagians, claimed that “the divine grace and help is not granted to individual acts, but consists in free will, and in the giving of the law and instruction.”

    Grace for them is our inherent capability to obey the law if we so choose. Grace for the Catholic is the assistance granted to make our cooperation with the Spirit possible. Grace for the Calvinist is utterly undeserved favor.

    So you can say “all is of grace,” but only because you do not define it as we do. Same thing for the Pelagian: he can say that “all is of grace,” but only after redefining “grace.”

    Let’s say you’re a student, filing into a classroom to take a final exam. The course has been co-taught by three professors. Each has prepared an exam. You get to choose whether or not to take one of the first two exams. Option three is available by invitation only:

    I. The Pelagian prof tells you, “Merry Christmas! I have spoon fed you from day one with all the information you need to ace this test. I have so much confidence in your abilities that that is all the grace you are going to need. I would say ‘good luck,’ but that would only belittle your efforts. Come forward and accept the challenge!”

    II. The Catholic faculty member tells you, “Happy Nativity! I have not only taught you all you need to know, but have several “helps” built into the exam: 1. there is a word bank for the fill-in-the-blank section, 2. outlines with all the pertinent data are provided for the essay section, 3. all of the answers in the multiple choice section are either “a” or “c,” and 4. if you really get stuck on something, come up to my desk and I’ll give you a hint. Good luck!”

    III. The Reformed teacher tells you, “Joyeux Noel! I have already stamped your exams with a big, red “100″ on the front and entered that assessment into my grade book. Come up and get them and fill them out for the sheer fun of it. Make me proud!”

    Educationally, I’m guessing, the Pelagian is the best instructor, but that is not the point of the illustration. We have three very different views about the nature of grace. You yourself can indeed say, “All is of grace,” but only by presuming a Catholic definition of grace.

  18. Kevin–

    De Maria is somewhat limited by his dogmatism, but most of the Catholics here are, as well. Jason, being new to the faith, has slightly less of a problem. Read De Maria for his firm grasp on Scripture and for his dogmatic insights. For example, just above, he wrote: “Unbloody simply means the blood is not visible.”

    I need to check on that, but if that is so–and I have no reason to believe that it isn’t–it’s something I didn’t know.

    (Thank you, De Maria!)

  19. De Maria–

    Unfortunately, your definition of “participation” does not include how to discern from Trent how the Eucharistic sacrifice is not a second and separate sacrifice from the Cross.

    The C2C’ers usually posit something on the order of being timelessly transported to the foot of the Cross to feed on the flesh and blood of Jesus first hand. How does one illustrate this notion from Scripture? Or Trent? Or other Catholic dogmatic sources?

  20. DeMaria, said like a good Catholic ” Unless you keep God”s commandments you are not saved. ” Romans 10:4 “for Christ is the END OF THE LAW FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS TO ALL WHO BELIEVE>” True believers will keep his commandments but in no way are we saved by them. Paul said Abraham had nothing to boast about in his works. But you guys keep going to the re butchering of my savior so you can merit and increase in justice and attain your way to heaven.You keep atoning and we will trust solely in Christ’s work because for us it is perfect and sufficient to cover all my sins. You can’t escape Hebrews 10:18 ” there are no more sacrifices and offerings for sins. ” Your priests will answer for being my savior’s regent and re offering him as an old testament sacrifice, as a victim. Christ says no one takes my life, i give it up of my own accord.

  21. DeMaria, pelagianism or semi plagiarism will send you to hell. Augustine was on his way to getting the semi plagiarism out of the church, and the Aquinas and all his little so called scholastic buddies brought it back through all that hair splitting ecclesiastical machinery. And John Paul took it to another level. What a man centered religion.

  22. DeMaria, your preaching to Eric about truly works centered religion. Your a hypocrite. Go through your RCIA program. They should give you a certificate for justification by fulfilling the law. You prohibit a person for years of baptism and salvation until he does a list of works a mile long. Please

  23. DeMaria, you tell Eric you don’t justify yourselves. You earn a merit by the act of doing a sacrament and gain an increase in grace. the harder you work the more grace. you guys say you participate in the mediation of Christ’s atonement by atoning for your own sins. Why do you think those old lades are going to mass 5 times a day! The Roman synagog is all about justifying yourself.

  24. +JMJ+

    Trolls. Don’t feed ‘em.*

    *A Public Service Announcement from WIN (the Wosbald Information Network)

  25. DeMaria, The blood isn’t offered, so don’t say it is offered under the guise….. You prohibit the wine to your people against scripture.

  26. DeMaria, last time we checked it was a commemoration meal not an old testament slaughter on an old testament altar by an old testament priest. Hebrews 8 says the old covenant is obsolete. We now worship as God told the woman at the well in Spirit and in truth. The flesh profits nothing. He tore the veil and said it is finished. His altar is in heaven, his ministry is in heaven, and he is the only priest and mediator in heaven. We don’t strap him to an altar again at the behest of a man. What an abomination.

  27. Eric, ya your right. I think the mass and the idolatry of Mary are horrific. Thx for your patience in calming me down brother. Its that italian blood!

  28. Eric, you’ve got to be one of the funniest cats in existence. I laugh so hard at your cracks. K

  29. One word Wosbald where you been. We await your pinnacle 3 word phrase every day. Get in, get out, remain cool. Thats what we use to say on the bandstand.

  30. Eric, Amen on your test analogy. You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. We got a 100% when we deserved hell. While we were yet sinners he died for us. Oh the love of God one church father said, Oh sweet exchange. He got the life we lived and we got the live he lived. We can only hope someday that the veil will be lifted from their eyes to jump on the mercy wagon.

  31. Eric, would i be right on the sole fact that masses have been sold for the living and the dead through their history, and efficacy through masses and indulgences have been sold throughout history would be enough itself to qualify this as a false church. Have you ever thought about a church selling forgiveness. i mean could you stay in that church?

  32. Repeat after me:

    I, Kevin Failoni, in the very auspicious year of our Lord 2014, do hereby solemnly vow and resolve…

    1. …to give far more time and thought to each of my posts.

    2. …to space my posts a little fewer and farther between.

    3. …to wait for others to respond to one post before deluging them with more.

    4. …to find other diversions to take up some of my copious amounts of free time.

    5. …to temper my language and reign in my temper.

    6. …to invest in spell-check software and take a course in English grammar.

    7. …to employ, so to speak, (for the sake of others if not myself), a modicum of punctuation: not just now and again–as if I easily tire of clear expression–but always and ever; I mean what I say, and I will not take it back in a week or so! [I won't, will I?]

    May the Creed-Code Cult deal with me, be it ever so severely, if I do not carry through with the aforementioned promises, forthwith and from here on out!! So help me, Calvin.

    OK, Kevin, now sign in blood….

  33. Eric and Kevin,

    Eric said,

    I have heard many a Catholic portray the Mass as a re-presentation or re-application of the same sacrifice. Bryan Cross, on Jason’s thread “A Once-for-all Perpetual Offering” calls it a “participation” in the same sacrifice (and rather than define “participation,” he more-or-less says its meaning is beyond us Protestant peons). Trying to get them to be specific on its meaning, I’m sure you’re aware, is like trying to nail jello to the wall.

    I went back and re-read Trent on the sacrifice of the Mass. You do appear to be correct. The Eucharist is a separate sacrifice from the Cross: same victim but different offering in a different manner [unbloody rather than bloody] yet nonetheless propitiatory. The text does not appear to be compatible with Bryan Cross’s interpretation, though I am sure he must have an explanation (I mean, doesn’t he always?):

    “And forasmuch as, in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the mass, that same Christ is contained and immolated in an unbloody manner, who once offered Himself in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross; the holy Synod teaches, that this sacrifice is truly propitiatory and that by means thereof this is effected, that we obtain mercy, and find grace in seasonable aid, if we draw nigh unto God, contrite and penitent, with a sincere heart and upright faith, with fear and reverence.”

    By the way, if Catholics are supposedly drinking the true blood of Christ, how is the sacrifice “unbloody”? (I assume it has to do with feeding on the whole Christ under either species.) The same thing could, of course, be asked of magisterial Protestants: is the Eucharistic Sacrament bloody or unbloody? I’m guessing we would have to answer unbloody, as well, for Christ is physically whole and present in heaven. Nevertheless, the Blood of Christ is offered to us in the cup.

    I want to offer a hearty amen to this idea of nailing jello to the wall in light of a response I just saw to Kevin on CTC. I’m sure Bryan is earnest and sincere, but he’s not the authoritative interpreter of Trent as if we cannot read what it says. I just read another person post over there that Luther’s problem with the Mass was that Luther, a medieval Roman monk did not understand the medieval Roman doctrine of the mass. He then pointed out modern scholarship that “proves” the Roman doctrine based on first-century Judaism. I’m sorry, that is so insane. First, it makes the anachronistic assumption that the medieval Roman doctrine was based on scholarship of first-century Judaism when barely any medieval cleric or theologian could read Hebrew. It also assumes that we have a better understanding of medieval doctrine then a medieval person.

    I think this way of reading Trent propounded here and over there has more to do with Bryan and Jason being smart enough to realize that the traditional position of Trent is untenable in light of what we know today. Instead of simply admitting that Rome was wrong in both the formulation and in understanding, we have to play language games. Such, I submit, is the consequence of affirming the infallibility of Rome. It’s really the ultimate in reader-response criticism. It doesn’t matter what the formulator of a statement meant then, it only matters what Rome today says.

  34. . KEVIN January 11, 2014 at 6:18 am ?De Maria, The grace of salvation is conditional? Ephesians 2:8 ” for by grace you have been saved through faith,it is not that of yourself, it is a gift the gift of God, not a result of works, lest any man should boast.” sounds unconditional to me.

    That’s because you ignore the rest of Scripture. You set aside the word of God with which you don’t agree.

    Galatians 6:7-8
    King James Version (KJV)

    7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

    The Scriptures very clear. The man who sows to the spirit, that is, the man who does the works of the spirit will reap life everlasting. That is to say, will be saved. That sounds conditional to me.

    You must have passed over this verse in your study. Stop boasting! Its got nothing to do with your works. That road according to Paul in Galations will find outer darkness.

    It is Protestants who boast about their faith alone. Catholics do not boast. We are not the ones who claim to be saved. It is you who claim to be righteous enough to be saved. But Scripture says different:

    2 Corinthians 7:9-10
    King James Version (KJV)
    9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing 10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

    Sincerely,

    De Maria

  35. Eric, will do.

  36. Hey Eric, post of the year up there. And Kevin, thanks for being a good sport!

  37. Robert, that was my point over there to Christopher, that it isn’t about the comparison to the sacrifice at the passover. Its about the finality of the sacrifice of Christ. They can’t have it both ways. Trent says it is a real sacrifice efficacious for sin. They anathematize anyone who says it isn’t a real sacrifice. Hebrews 10:18 leaves them no escape there is no more offering for sin. Bryan says that means animal. But the verse say none, any. How many times can you do the same sacrifice. A sacrifice is once. So it can’t be a representation of the same one. And if it is done again and again the it didn’t perfect anyone. And it is a replay of the old testament sacrifice.

  38. Jason your welcome, Im all over the place sometimes. i need guys like Eric. Sorry everyone.

  39. Robert, Eric, the scripture says “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. So can an un bloody sacrifice be efficacious?

  40. All good in tha hood, Kevin. Your openness to correction makes you likable, and we need more of that mojo in discussions like this.

  41. Kevin,
    the Book of Hebrews was written to Hebrew Christians whom were under tremendous persecution and temptation to go back to the old covenant. The writer in every chapter shows the superiority of the NC over the OC in Hebrew 10:18,the writer is saying that the Christ offered his sacrifice once and for all (one time no need to repeat it) and he entered in the heavenly sanctuary and he is staying there forever not like the OT high priest who had to enter into the Holy of Holy once a year with the blood of calf or pull and he had to leave as quick as possible. The high priest in the OC has to do this repeatedly each year go in and out. Christ by his perfect sacrifice had entered once and for all that is why he doesn’t suffer repeatedly. He is standing in front of God as a high priest, victim and king. Hebrew 8:3 says(Now every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus the necessity for this one also to have something to offer) so what is Jesus offering to God in heaven now. Himself the book of revelation Chapter 5 tells us the Christ, the lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David is standing before the Father as a slain lamb how take away the sins of the word as John the Baptist proclaimed in Jh1:29

    God bless

  42. De Maria–

    Once again, JBFA is shorthand for justification by grace alone through faith alone on account of Christ alone for the glory of God alone. Grace and faith are out-and-out gifts from Christ. The whole formula focuses on Christ and him alone. So yes, we will boast in Christ alone…from now till the cows come home…and go out in the meadow and return…and go out in the meadow and return…and go out in the meadow….

  43. Wassan, I don’t need Hebrews explained to me. A Catholic should take away from this 1. 10:14 once, perfected all christians. 2.10:18 no more offering for sin. 3. 8:13 He made the first obsolete. 4. 9:28 having offered once to bear sins. 5. 9:26 He put sin away. 6. 10:12 ” but He, HAVING OFFERED ONE SACRIFICE FOR SINS FOR ALL TIME”SAT DOWN AT THEE RIGHT HAND OF GOD. He said it is finished. The comparison between the Roman church and the Jews he is addressing is instructive. Like the Jews the Catholics need a visible altar, a visible sacrifice, a visible priest. But his altar is in heaven, his ministry in heaven, his priesthood in heaven. In fact the writer of hebrews tells them this need for the visible is them shrinking back in their faith. He offered sacrifice once for all time and it perfected those for whom he died, and it says there is no more sacrifice for sin. Incidentally without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin, so the unbloody so called Roman sacrifice cannot and isn’t efficacious.

  44. Jason, thx i like you too. Question: Rome anathematizes anyone who says the Roman mass isn’t a real sacrifice. Sacrificium means sacrifice. It is efficacious according to them. Hebrews 10:18 says there are no more sacrifices for sin. Doesn’t Romans 10: 18 give Rome no escape? And one other question, has it ever bothered you that you joined a church that has sold forgiveness thru history thru the masses and indulgences for the living and the dead? Thx Kevin

  45. Kevin,

    And I don’t think Catholics need your fallible interpretation of the Book of Hebrews
    let me ask you

    1- what is the point of Hebrews 8:3?

    2- why Christ is looking like a lamb as He have been slain?

    3- what is this pure offering the prophet Malachi is speaking of in Malachi 1:12?

    God Bless

  46. Wassan, Malachi translation incense. The point of Hebrews 8:3 The Audience here, who needed visible things like you guys, needed to be reminded in comparison with the old covenant that Christ is the one high priest on the order of Melchizedek who also offers something, himself one time. It does not say somethings but something. the old testament priests offered many gifts and sacrifices, but Christ offers one thing himself. He is continually to intercede for us. Later on in chapter 9 he says that he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near. as we pray and offer up sacrifices of thanksgiving and prayer, as we confess, he intercedes for us. But hebrews is clear Christ offered himself up once, it perfected us, and he is never to die again. Revelations!:17 Jesus says ” I was dead and now i live forevermore. He can’t be immolated on a Roman altar.

  47. +JMJ+

    Kevin wrote:

    DeMaria, for those of us trusting Christ alone we all got a special revelation from God on knowing your saved. Romans 5:1 and 1 John 5:13.

    Oh, do tell.

  48. KEVIN January 11, 2014 at 6:40 am ?DeMaria, you said the church explains the word of God, and docent add to it. I’m laughing. Cardinals, Popes, scapulars, masses, sacramental efficacy, mediator Mary, veneration of angels, prayers to the dead, 7 sacraments, indulgences, assumption of Mary, immaculate conception, etc. All fictitious worship, nowhere in scripture. If the RC is infallible about anything is being fallible. Who should we trust the Pope in 1420 that killed Joan of Arc as heretic, the next Pope who pardoned her, or the one who 40 years later made her a saint the men who went to the council of Nicea would recognize nothing of the RC today.

    All that is in Scripture Kevin. That which is not in Scripture however, is Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide. We’ve been discussing both of those. You have yet to provide any proof from Scripture for either of those Protestant doctrines.

    ? Sincerely,

    De Maria?

  49. DeMaria, And where is the verse on Cardinals in the bible. DeMaria, did you know the word for priest is hiereus. its mentioned over 400 times in the old testament. And its never mentioned in the new testament. Show me the false Catholic priesthood in the new testament.

  50. KEVIN January 11, 2014 at 6:44 am ?DeMaria, for those of us trusting Christ alone we all got a special revelation from God on knowing your saved. Romans 5:1 and 1 John 5:13.

    Again, you have proved that you disregard those portions of Scripture with which you disagree:

    Romans 5
    King James Version (KJV)
    5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

    2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

    That is the Catholic Doctrine. We hope in God. We do not claim our salvation. We leave that to God.

    1 John 5
    King James Version (KJV)
    1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
    2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

    This is also Catholic Doctrine. St. John admonishes us to keep the Commandments. Protestants claim this is no longer necessary. In the same letter, a bit earlier:

    1 John 3
    King James Version (KJV)
    3 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
    2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

    3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
    4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
    6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

    All of which is Catholic Doctrine and which disagrees with the Protestant doctrine of saving oneself by proclaiming faith alone.

    KEVIN January 11, 2014 at 6:45 am ?DeMaria, Romans 4:5 ” to the one WHO DOES NOT WORK.”

    True. This is reference to King David and his affair with Bathsheba. He didn’t work BUT he did confess his sins to the Prophet Nathan. And he was forgiven but had to expiate his sins in suffering when his child died and when his children went to war with him and with each other.

    KEVIN January 11, 2014 at 10:29 am ?DeMaria, said like a good Catholic ” Unless you keep God”s commandments you are not saved. ” Romans 10:4 “for Christ is the END OF THE LAW FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS TO ALL WHO BELIEVE”.

    That is true. Christ brought the Law of Moses and the Old Covenant to an end and established His own law:
    Galatians 6:2 Bear ye one another’s burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

    True believers will keep his commandments

    What happened to entering your rest? You have contradicted yourself since you now claim to work after you are justified. But earlier you said you rested of your works when you were justified.

    but in no way are we saved by them.

    Nor are we. God saves those who keep His commandments. If you claim that you keep his commandments, God will judge. If He judges your works according to His will, you will be saved. If He judges your works in contradiction of His will, you will be condemned:

    Matthew 7:22-25
    King James Version (KJV)
    22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
    24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
    25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

    Paul said Abraham had nothing to boast about in his works.

    Abraham had nothing to boast about. He understood being a faithful servant who says:
    Luke 17:10
    So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

    But that didn’t stop God from boasting about Abraham’s works:
    Genesis 26:5
    Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

    You have not understood that when we work, it is God who works through us to accomplish His will:

    Philippians 2:12
    Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

    But you guys keep going to the re butchering of my savior so you can merit and increase in justice and attain your way to heaven.You keep atoning and we will trust solely in Christ’s work because for us it is perfect and sufficient to cover all my sins.

    On the contrary, it is we who trust in Christ’s work, which is His offering to God in our behalf. But you show a profound disdain for His offering. Scripture says:

    Hebrews 10:25-31
    King James Version (KJV)
    25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

    You can’t escape Hebrews 10:18 ” there are no more sacrifices and offerings for sins. ”

    He’s talking about the Old Testament animal sacrifices. His once-for-all sacrifice remains.
    Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all….16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
    The new and living way is the Sacrament of the Eucharist.

    Your priests will answer for being my savior’s regent and re offering him as an old testament sacrifice, as a victim.

    No. The one New Testament victim. from whom all victimhood is derived:
    Galatians 2:20
    I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

    Christ says no one takes my life, i give it up of my own accord.

    That is correct. That is precisely what He did upon the Cross. Now, the Ministerial Priest, acting in the Person of Christ, reconciles us to the Father:
    2 Corinthians 5:17-20
    King James Version (KJV)
    17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
    18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
    19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
    20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

    ???

    KEVIN January 11, 2014 at 10:34 am ?DeMaria, pelagianism or semi plagiarism will send you to hell. Augustine was on his way to getting the semi plagiarism out of the church, and the Aquinas and all his little so called scholastic buddies brought it back through all that hair splitting ecclesiastical machinery. And John Paul took it to another level. What a man centered religion.

    On the contrary Kevin. The man centered or more accurately, self centered religion is the Protestant theology. We, obey God, hope in God and wait upon God’s judgment.

    Protestants deny God His Judgment and like the Pharisee claim themselves righteous without awaiting God’s righteous judgment. . ??

    KEVIN January 11, 2014 at 10:37 am ?DeMaria, your preaching to Eric about truly works centered religion. Your a hypocrite. Go through your RCIA program. They should give you a certificate for justification by fulfilling the law. You prohibit a person for years of baptism and salvation until he does a list of works a mile long. Please

    The Catholic Church is acting biblically in so doing. Have you not read in Scripture:
    2 Timothy 2:15
    Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
    ?

    KEVIN January 11, 2014 at 10:42 am ?DeMaria, you tell Eric you don’t justify yourselves.

    That is true. We await God’s judgment. And we approach the Sacraments with due trepidation. For the Scripture says:
    2 Corinthians 5:10-12
    King James Version (KJV)
    10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
    11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
    12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.

    And also:
    Mark 16:16
    He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    Therefore we pray:
    Luke 17:5
    And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.

    You earn a merit by the act of doing a sacrament and gain an increase in grace.

    If God so wills. But we must approach the Sacrament with the proper attitude of faith.

    the harder you work the more grace. you guys say you participate in the mediation of Christ’s atonement by atoning for your own sins.

    Again, this is biblical:
    Acts 26:20
    But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

    Why do you think those old lades are going to mass 5 times a day!

    Never met one that did that. I think you have made that up.

    The Roman synagog is all about justifying yourself.

    Nope. It is not we who cry out, “I AM SAVED! By my faith alone I have justified myself!”

    Sincerely,
    De Maria
    .

  51. . KEVIN January 11, 2014 at 10:46 am ?DeMaria, The blood isn’t offered, so don’t say it is offered under the guise….. You prohibit the wine to your people against scripture.

    Nope.
    1. There is no wine, is it His blood in the appearance of wine.
    2. The body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ reside in the host or the cup. ??

    KEVIN January 11, 2014 at 10:56 am ?DeMaria, last time we checked it was a commemoration meal not an old testament slaughter on an old testament altar by an old testament priest. Hebrews 8 says the old covenant is obsolete. We now worship as God told the woman at the well in Spirit and in truth. The flesh profits nothing.

    Christ is our New Testament Passover. He has offered Himself and now we must participate by consuming the Offering. If we want to be saved.

    He tore the veil and said it is finished.

    His part of the offering was finished. Now it remains for us to cooperate with Him and consume the Offering.

    His altar is in heaven, his ministry is in heaven, and he is the only priest and mediator in heaven. We don’t strap him to an altar again at the behest of a man.

    We preach Christ crucified. Christ offered Himself upon the altar of the Cross and we must eat His body and drink His blood in order to wash away our sins.

    What an abomination.

    The abomination is that committed by the one who denies the efficacy of the Sacrament of Jesus’ body and blood.

    Sincerely,

    De Maria

  52. De Maria–
    Once again, JBFA is shorthand for justification by grace alone through faith alone on account of Christ alone for the glory of God alone. Grace and faith are out-and-out gifts from Christ. The whole formula focuses on Christ and him alone. So yes, we will boast in Christ alone…from now till the cows come home…and go out in the meadow and return…and go out in the meadow and return…and go out in the meadow….

    You are like Saul, who boasted in his disobedience and whom Samuel admonished:
    1 Samuel 15:22
    And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

    Scripture says that justification is by faith and works, but you reject that. Scripture says to obey your leaders, but you deny that. You would rather follow the doctrines of men.

    Sincerely,

    De Maria

  53. DeMaria, the difference between Reformed and Catholics is we view scripture theocentriclly and you view it anthropocentrically. We believe that our salvation is all a work of God Romans8:28-30, those he predestined, he called, he justified, he glorified. All past tense. We have peace and assurance through the scripture teaching us that. Thats why Paul tells us in Roman 5:1 we have been justified and have true shalom. We never worry about our salvation because it depends on His promises to us and not on us. For you it is different because in some way your salvation depends on you, your gospel is man centered ours is God centered. DeMaria listen to John 10:27-28 ” For my sheep hear my voice and I GIVE THEM ETERNAL LIFE.”We just receive his free gift by Paul’s verse ” the righteous shall live by faith. He calls us righteous and tells us just to believe. We don’t have to wait for the surprise in the end and hold our breadth. Romanist don’t have this peace. he has given us the spirit as a guarantee to our adoption and inheritance. Jesus says He loses none the father has given him. You view the verses on obedience prescriptive, we view them descriptive of a person trusting him. Paul, whose language we adopt, fought the accusations of antinomianism. So when you accuse of the same thing we wear it as a badge of sharing the right Gospel. we love it. The only way to heaven is to jump on the mercy wagon to Zion. He simply says in John 1:12 ” but to as many as receive Him, to them he has given the right to become children of God. God sent the Reformers to rescue the apostles and the early church from your hair splitting academics who were trying to make the bible a metaphysics essay. and they dispensed of the ecclesiastical machinery that was mostly pagan and human in origin and content. And Eric would be proud of me because this has been well thought through, loving, grammatically improved. He made me sign in blood. Peace Quit working your way to heaven in a state of grace and jump on the mercy wagon. ” for if it is by grace it is no longer on the basis of works, or grace wouldn’t be grace.”

  54. you side
    Wassan, Malachi translation incense.

    me

    here is a Biblical Exegesis of Malachi 1:6 – 2:9 (With Emphasis on 1:11)
    by Steven Lovison

    http://blog.adorationservants.org/2013/02/21/malachi-111-is-the-catholic-mass/

    also check her for some ECF who link the sacrifice of the Mass to Malachi
    http://www.examiner.com/article/malachi-s-prophecy-of-the-mass

    you said

    The point of Hebrews 8:3 The Audience here, who needed visible things like you guys, needed to be reminded in comparison with the old covenant that Christ is the one high priest on the order of Melchizedek who also offers something, himself one time. It does not say somethings but something. the old testament priests offered many gifts and sacrifices, but Christ offers one thing himself. He is continually to intercede for us

    me

    Hebrews 8:1-3
    The main point of what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken his seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven,a2a minister of the sanctuary* and of the true tabernacle that the Lord, not man, set up.b3Now every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus the necessity for this one also to have something to offer.c

    A minster has a ongoing ministry as you said he keep intercedes for us the question is His intercessory role any deferent or separate than His work on the cross?
    Catholic says they are one of the same work Christ is offering Himself (His glorified body and His own Blood ) to the Father continually as an intercessory offering that we participate in and this the only way that our offerings and any offerings can be accepted because it is united to the one and perfect offering of our Lord.

    God Bless

  55. +JMJ+

    Kevin wrote:

    DeMaria, the difference between Reformed and Catholics is we view scripture theocentriclly and you view it anthropocentrically.

    Now, we’re getting somewhere. There may well be a difference, but the difference is not exactly as you think it is. Reformists may, indeed, view Scripture theocentrically, but Catholics view it Incarnocentrically. The Incarnocentric view includes both the theocentric and the anthropocentric views encapsulated within the unity of a single Person.

  56. Wassan, Unfortunately your not being forthright. Because your official doctrine anathematizes anyone who says it isn’t a true and real sacrifice in itself. So you guys say it is a replay of a movie. But in reality you his that it is a real sacrifice each time that is efficacious for sins for the living and the dead. It is a true offering unbloody by a sinful man pulling Christ down from heaven as his regent( these are Bishop O’Brien’s words)and offering him up again. It is a work on the part of the participant to purchase an increase in justice for himself and his dead friends. It is also the participant offering himself up for his sins. All this Bryan confirmed to me on Rome, Geneva. Unfortunately it is a replay of an old testament sacrifice because it doesnt perfect anyone, and since it has to be done over and over again it is of no effect. This is the truth of your mass that even many brillia reformed people on this site didn’t know. And I’m guessing most of you don’t know. It is a twisted sacrifice of what is a finished act, Hebrews 10:18 leaves you no escape. There is no more offering for sin.

  57. Author: kevin
    Comment:
    DeMaria, And where is the verse on Cardinals in the bible.

    Cardinals are simply people who have been appointed by the Pope because they have studied shown themselves exceptionally approved:
    2 Timothy 2:15
    Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    DeMaria, did you know the word for priest is hiereus. its mentioned over 400 times in the old testament. And its never mentioned in the new testament.

    It is mentioned in the New Testament:

    That I g3165 ?? me

    should be g1519 ??? eis g1511 ????? einai

    the minister g3011 ?????????? leitourgos

    of Jesus g2424 ?????? I?sous

    Christ g5547 ??????? Christos

    to g1519 ??? eis

    the Gentiles, g1484 ????? ethnos

    ministering g2418 ????????? hierourge?

    the gospel

    g2098
    ?????????? euaggelion

    of God,

    g2316
    ???? theos

    Show me the false Catholic priesthood in the new testament.

    I can only show you the true Catholic Priesthood. Listen carefully:

    Matthew 12
    King James Version (KJV)
    12 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat.

    Jesus’ disciples were hungry on the sabbath and began to pluck corn from the field and eat it.

    2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

    The Pharisees objected that they were breaking the Law of Moses.

    3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;

    Jesus reminded them that David had eaten of the shewbread in the Temple when he was hungry.

    4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?

    The shewbread was not lawful for David to eat. But it was lawful for the priests.

    5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

    The priests, the ministers in the Temple are free to profane the sabbath.

    6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.

    Here, in verse 6, Jesus proclaims to the Pharisees that He is God. He is greater than the Temple.

    7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

    Here, He proclaims to the Pharisees that they have condemned the guiltless. The disciples are guiltless because they are His Priests. They may profane the Sabbath because He is the Lord of the Sabbath. They are greater Priests than the priests of the Temple because He is greater than the Temple.

    8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

    Jesus is God and He established His Priesthood, which continues to this day.

    2 Corinthians 5:20
    Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

    Sincerely,

    De Maria

  58. Wosbald, well then maybe you missed the memo, the incarnation is a finished work in history that, like only Eric could say, is a blanket that stretches across history. You keep going to that sacrifice on the altar of the mass and earn your increase in justice for you and your dead friends and we will live by faith like Paul instructs us. We will get our assurance from the promise of Christ that to as many as receive him he gives the right to be called children of God. And you keep working hard and attaining it and purchasing your forgiveness thru doing sacraments. We will sleep sound knowing our salvation rests onHis promises and you hold your breadth and wait to the end to find out whats in the box.God bless

  59. +JMJ+

    Kevin wrote:

    Wosbald, well then maybe you missed the memo, the incarnation is a finished work in history that, like only Eric could say, is a blanket that stretches across history.

    Well, you see, I can understand to a certain degree (at least, within a Reformed paradigm) your predisposition against viewing the Church through an Incarnational lens. But if you don’t even view the Scripture through an Incarnational lens, then maybe you should reconsider the focus of your hermeneutic. Does the Incarnation fit anywhere in the Reformed paradigm other than as remote and curious “bare fact of history”? If not, then Jason’s comment earlier in this thread seems perfectly vindicated…

    There’s no Trinity, sonship, adoption, or Incarnation in any of it [the Reformed hermeneutic].

  60. Author: kevin
    Comment:
    DeMaria, the difference between Reformed and Catholics is we view scripture theocentriclly and you view it anthropocentrically.

    It is precisely the reverse. You view scripture self centeredly, we view it according to the instructions of Scripture:
    2 Corinthians 3:6
    Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

    We believe that our salvation is all a work of God

    We do that. But we understand that God saves only those who obey His will.
    Matthew 7:21
    King James Version (KJV)
    21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    Romans8:28-30, those he predestined, he called, he justified, he glorified. All past tense.

    God knows who will be saved. God knows everything. But we don’t. You claim to know that you are saved, but you don’t. Or you make Scripture a liar:
    1 Corinthians 10:12
    Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

    We have peace and assurance through the scripture teaching us that.

    Scripture doesn’t teach you that you are saved. You have read that into the Scripture. Scripture teaches that God saves those who obey His will.

    Thats why Paul tells us in Roman 5:1 we have been justified and have true shalom.

    Romans 5:1- 4 does not speak of assurance of salvation, but of assurance of hope:
    Romans 5
    King James Version (KJV)
    5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

    2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

    3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

    4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

    We have peace because we hope in our salvation.

    We never worry about our salvation because it depends on His promises to us and not on us.

    Yes, you do. Protestants worry all the time. It is Catholics who don’t. We leave our salvation in God’s hands.
    1 Corinthians 4:3-4
    King James Version (KJV)
    3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.

    4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

    For you it is different because in some way your salvation depends on you, your gospel is man centered ours is God centered.

    It is not I proclaiming myself saved because of my faith alone. It is you. I leave my salvation in God’s hands. I obey His will to the best of my ability knowing that He is a rewarder of those who faithfully seek Him:
    Hebrews 11:6
    But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

    DeMaria listen to John 10:27-28 ” For my sheep hear my voice and I GIVE THEM ETERNAL LIFE.”

    Kevin, listen to what He is saying:
    Matthew 25:31-46
    King James Version (KJV)
    31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

    32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

    33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

    34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

    35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

    36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

    37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

    38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

    39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

    40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

    41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:….46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

    We just receive his free gift by Paul’s verse ” the righteous shall live by faith.

    To live by faith is to live a righteous life. These do not live by faith:
    1 Corinthians 6:8-10
    King James Version (KJV)
    8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren. 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

    But people who have faith keep the commandments and live like this:
    Revelation 14:12
    Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

    He calls us righteous

    Here is one of the differences between Catholics and Protestants. Protestants proclaim God a liar. They say that the unrighteous man will be covered over by God’s grace and God will proclaim him righteous although he is not righteous. Martin Luther famously described this as “snow covered dung hill”.

    But Catholics believe that God makes a “forensic” judgment. Surprised? Forensic doesn’t mean to lie. Forensic means to look at the evidence and judge whether someone is guilty or innocent. Unless a human judge is corrupt, he looks at the evidence and attempts to judge whether the person being examined is guilty or innocent.

    There are no obstacles for God. For example, when God judged that Abraham was righteous, He did not cover a sinner over with righteousness. He looked into Abraham’s soul and declared that Abraham was truly righteous. He does this with every man. God doesn’t call the unrighteous, righteous. God doesn’t cover over anything. God hates those who cover over sins and wickedness. It is called “whitewashing” in the Scriptures.

    Matt 23:27 King James Bible
    Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.

    Ezekiel 13:11
    New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    11 so tell those who plaster it over with whitewash, that it will fall. A flooding rain will come, and you, O hailstones, will fall; and a violent wind will break out.

    and tells us just to believe.

    He tells us to believe and obey:
    Hebrews 5:9
    King James Version
    And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    to be cont’d

    Sincerely,

    De Maria

  61. DeMaria, no God doesn’t save those who obey his will, He saves those who have faith in Jesus. Romans 3:28 ‘ for He is both just and justifier of those who have faith in Jesus.”

  62. DeMaria, did you really just say scripture doesn’t teach me i am saved.1 John 5:13 ” These things have been written to you who believe that you may KNOW that you have eternal life. How sad.

  63. Kevin cont’d

    We don’t have to wait for the surprise in the end and hold our breadth. Romanist don’t have this peace. he has given us the spirit as a guarantee to our adoption and inheritance.

    On the contrary, we have true peace. We don’t have to pretend to be the judges of our souls. Whereas, you have a false peace. You will certainly receive the reward of your human judgment. We prefer God’s judgment to human judgment.

    Jesus says He loses none the father has given him.

    That is correct. We believe what He says. We recognize our weaknesses and humbly approach Him with fear and trembling:
    2 Corinthians 7:15
    ? King James Version?And his inward affection is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received him.

    You view the verses on obedience prescriptive,

    Correct.

    we view them descriptive of a person trusting him.

    We view them as both descriptive and prescriptive. The two are not mutually exclusive. If we obey, we will be saved. Both are true.

    Paul, whose language we adopt,

    You mean “adapt”. And that is the problem. Scripture warns the uneducated that St. Paul’s words can be misunderstood:
    2 Peter 3:16
    ? King James Version?As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

    fought the accusations of antinomianism. So when you accuse of the same thing we wear it as a badge of sharing the right Gospel. we love it.

    The reason you wear it as a badge of honor is because it is true. Protestants teach that the Commandments are no longer necessary for salvation. But Scripture says differently:
    Revelation 22:12-15
    King James Version (KJV)

    12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
    13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
    14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
    15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
    You can be as proud of your error as you want. It is still an error and those who refuse to keep the Commandments will burn in hell for setting aside the will of God:
    Romans 6:15
    What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

    The only way to heaven is to jump on the mercy wagon to Zion.

    And the only way to jump on the mercy wagon is to keep the Commandments:
    Exodus 20:6
    And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

    He simply says in John 1:12 ” but to as many as receive Him, to them he has given the right to become children of God. God sent the Reformers to rescue the apostles and the early church from your hair splitting academics who were trying to make the bible a metaphysics essay. and they dispensed of the ecclesiastical machinery that was mostly pagan and human in origin and content.

    On the contrary, the Reformers are prophecied in this verse:
    2 Timothy 4:3
    For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

    And Eric would be proud of me because this has been well thought through, loving, grammatically improved. He made me sign in blood. Peace Quit working your way to heaven in a state of grace and jump on the mercy wagon. ” for if it is by grace it is no longer on the basis of works, or grace wouldn’t be grace.”

    Lol! That is your problem. You are trying to please men. We are looking to please God. Therefore we will continue to work out our salvation in fear and trembling (Phil 2:12).

    Sincerely,

    De Maria

  64. KEVIN January 12, 2014 at 12:54 pm
    DeMaria, no God doesn’t save those who obey his will, He saves those who have faith in Jesus. Romans 3:28 ‘ for He is both just and justifier of those who have faith in Jesus.”

    Kevin, those who have faith in God, obey His will.

  65. KEVIN January 12, 2014 at 12:54 pm
    DeMaria, no God doesn’t save those who obey his will,….

    Really? Have you not read in Scripture:
    Romans 8
    King James Version (KJV)
    8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

    3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

    4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

    6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

    7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

  66. KEVIN January 12, 2014 at 12:57 pm
    DeMaria, did you really just say scripture doesn’t teach me i am saved.1 John 5:13 ” These things have been written to you who believe that you may KNOW that you have eternal life. How sad.

    I said that Scripture doesn’t teach you absolute assurance of salvation. We believe we are saved and walk with the Saints when we are baptized and born again. But our salvation is conditioned on the basis that we will keep the Commandments.

    1 Corinthians 7:19
    Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

  67. DeMaria, well biblical salvation isn’t conditioned on works but ply by faith. ” Romans 4:3 ” to the one who does not work but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly.”You say God will condition your salvation on keeping the commandments. But Paul says the exact opposite, God justifies the ungodly by faith as a free gift and not a result of ant works. justification i scripture is by faith. Yes justification results in an obedient life, but those spirit led works are the result of salvation not the condition of it. ” For if it is by grace it is no longer by works, or else grace wouldn’t be grace. God doesn’t offer salvation on the installment plan. He teaches complete assurance by faith. We sleep well at night. peace

  68. KEVIN January 12, 2014 at 1:22 pm
    DeMaria, well biblical salvation isn’t conditioned on works but ply by faith. ”

    Faith which works by love:
    Galatians 5:6
    For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

    Romans 4:3 ” to the one who does not work but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly.”

    As I already mentioned. That is a reference to David who confessed his sins to Nathan, the priest/prophet. Nathan then revealed that God had forgiven David. But that David would have to pay for his sins even though they had been forgiven.

    This is a foreshadowing of the Sacrament of Reconciliation, more commonly known as the Sacrament of Confession.

    You say God will condition your salvation on keeping the commandments.

    Everyone’s. Scripture is clear.

    Psalm 119:166
    Lord, I have hoped for thy salvation, and done thy commandments.

    But Paul says the exact opposite, God justifies the ungodly by faith as a free gift and not a result of ant works. justification i scripture is by faith.

    On the contrary, St. Paul says:
    Romans 2:1-13
    King James Version (KJV)
    1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

    2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

    3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

    4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

    5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

    6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

    7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

    8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

    9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

    10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

    11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

    12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

    13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

    Yes justification results in an obedient life,

    Not in resting. And one is not justified unless one is already obedient to God’s will.

    Hebrews 5:9
    And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    but those spirit led works are the result of salvation not the condition of it.

    They are the condition of it.

    1 Corinthians 6:9
    Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

    ” For if it is by grace it is no longer by works, or else grace wouldn’t be grace.

    That means that we have a New Covenant wherein we receive sanctifying grace in the Sacraments.

    God doesn’t offer salvation on the installment plan. He teaches complete assurance by faith. We sleep well at night. peace

    It doesn’t matter how you sleep at night. Yours is false security based upon your own judgment.
    Job 27:8
    For what is the hope of the hypocrite, though he hath gained, when God taketh away his soul?

    We sleep in a peace based upon our hope in God.

    Psalm 38:15
    For in thee, O Lord, do I hope: thou wilt hear, O Lord my God.

    Sincerely,

    De Maria

  69. Kevin,
    if we our concision is perfected and all sins past and future are forgiven why would Jesus still interceding? and dose His intercessory role any different or separate work than his work one on the cross? and how can you as a sinner offers a pure offering (sacrifice) when you theology says everything comes from us is tinted with sin?

    Can you please answer these questions

    God Bless

  70. Wassan, The Roman church missed the forensic nature of justification, Our position is righteous before God because his passive and active obedience is imputed to us. Try to understand Romans 5:12-19,2 Corinthians 5:21, 1 Corinthians 1:30, Romans 1:17, 3:21. Jerimaiah 23, If you can understand those verses you will answer your question. Even though our position is secured before God we are called to holiness in our sanctification and as we sin 1 john 1:9 says he is faithful to forgive us of all unrighteousness. Its like a foot washing. You guys have a tough time understanding you don’t go in and out of salvation every time you sin. Hebrews 10:14 says by one offering He perfected for all time those of us for whom he died. That has to mean our position because we are not inherently righteous. Thats why the our catechism says we are justified not by anything wrought in us( Titus 3:5) but what was done for us that becomes ours through the spirit. Collosians says we have been made complete in Him. And he calls the sinful corinthians in the beginning of the Epistle sanctified past tense. We have been given the Spirit as a guarantee and our adoption is complete. Wassan these are all references to the already justification and the not yet we will collect at the eschaton.

  71. DeMaria, you all over the place man. I can’t converse with you anymore. You need a hermeneutic class bad. If you want to know about justification you have to go to the verses and sections of scripture that specifically deal with that subject. You can’t simply pull any verse to support your works righteousness. Ya, you have grace in a sacrament that you have to work for. What a contradiction the substance of free grace in sacrament but you have to do it ex opere operato,a work to get it. Not only that but your prepatory works help determine how much grace you get. I have to laugh. that free!!!!! What a perverted system. Grace is unmerited favor.1 John 1:16 says we have been given grace upon grace. You don’t have to do a work at a sacrament to get it. Its free! Mine is a true security buckwheat based on based on his promise. And yours is a false hope. Read Romans 9:30-!0:4 slow every night. Paul is talking about you. Now i have been kind to you, bless you.

  72. Kevin,

    You still didn’t answer my question in the Advent thread concerning the parallel between “power” and “righteousness of God” in Romans 1:16-17. How could the “righteousness of God” give the gospel the “power” to “save” sinners if it is just a mere legal declaration? For Paul, salvation is being regenerated. But how could the “righteousness of God” give power if it is not regenerative? Please do not explain how we are regenerated by the spirit and then the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us, because this fails to account for Paul’s statement wherein the power of God to save is founded on the righteousness of God.

  73. KEVIN January 12, 2014 at 6:18 pm
    DeMaria, you all over the place man.

    I simply responded to your objections.

    I can’t converse with you anymore.

    Ok.

    You need a hermeneutic class bad.

    On the contrary, it is you who needs to learn the Catholic Doctrines upon which the New Testament are based. Then you will begin to understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    If you want to know about justification you have to go to the verses and sections of scripture that specifically deal with that subject.

    I have done so. I’ll give you another:

    James 2:24
    Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

    You can’t simply pull any verse to support your works righteousness.

    I don’t. That is Protestant M.O.

    Ya, you have grace in a sacrament that you have to work for.

    The Sacraments are God’s mighty works.

    What a contradiction the substance of free grace in sacrament but you have to do it ex opere operato,a work to get it.

    All we have to do is have faith in God’s promises. Like the people whom Jesus healed, we approach Him in the Sacraments and He heals our souls.

    Not only that but your prepatory works help determine how much grace you get. I have to laugh. that free!!!!!

    Never heard of “predatory” works. But we receive grace according to that which God portions to us:
    Romans 12:6
    Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

    What a perverted system.

    The Doctrines of God are not received by the natural man:
    1 Corinthians 2:14
    But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    Grace is unmerited favor.1 John 1:16 says we have been given grace upon grace. You don’t have to do a work at a sacrament to get it. Its free! Mine is a true security buckwheat based on based on his promise. And yours is a false hope. Read Romans 9:30-!0:4 slow every night. Paul is talking about you. Now i have been kind to you, bless you.

    Romans 9:30-10:4
    King James Version (KJV)
    30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

    St. Paul is referring to the fact that many Gentiles came to the faith of Christ at the preaching of the Church:
    Acts 13:45-47
    King James Version (KJV)
    45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

    10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

    He wishes that all of the Jews turn to Christ and be saved.

    2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

    Because he knows of their faith in God.

    3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness,

    But he also knows that they don’t know Christ. Jesus Christ is the righteousness of God.

    and going about to establish their own righteousness,

    But many of them believe that God owes them salvation.

    Luke 18:9
    King James Version (KJV)
    9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

    This is the classic Protestant error. Claiming salvation for themselves and condemning all others.

    have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

    But they have not trusted in the promises of Christ and thus refused to submit to the Sacraments wherein we receive the grace of God by faith.

    4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

    Christ has replaced the Old Testament sacrifices with the New Testament Sacraments. Those who believe in Christ will submit to the Sacraments and be saved, walking upon Mount Sion with the spirits of men made perfect.

    Sincerely,

    De Maria

  74. DeMaria, Admit it, the sacrament are the work of man in Romanism, thats not free grace. Its the opposite. the reformers had a cow over this preparation and work before a sacramnet to earn an increase in grace. It aint free. Putting sacrificial efficacy up in the place of the atonement and justification by simple faith is a different gospel.

  75. Erick, He does not say the power is in the righteousness of God, he says the Gospel is the power to those who appropriate it thru believing. In the Gospel” the righteousness of God” is revealed. This is the same phrase “righteousness of God” in 3:21 that base been manifested apart form the Law. It is the same” righteousness on God”that we become in Him in 2 Corinthians 5:21. It is the same” free gift of righteousness” in Romans 5:17. See the pattern. If it is a free gift, then doing a work at a sacrament to earn an increase in grace and justice is antithetical. And all the preparation( works) a Catholic must do for a sacrament determining how much grace you receive is antithetical to the “free gift of righteousness”which is received by simple faith. This is the power of God in the Gospel.

  76. Erick, you seem to have a tough time getting by regeneration. Despite the attempts on the Roman church to draw unfounded connections between infant baptism and verses on regeneration in the scripture the bible says we are justified by faith. Infants are incapable of faith. And the Romanists try hard to say oh its the faith of the parents, the neighbors, the priest that counts in its place, it is absurd. In any relationship there are legal aspects and relational aspects. Adopting a child is legal first and then relational. Justification and adoption are the legal aspects of salvation which provide a vital life with Christ. All a work of the Spirit thru his word. Faith comes thru hearing and hearing the word of God.

  77. Eric, DeMaria says their new testament sacrifices replace the old testament sacrifices. Have you known that to be Roman doctrine? Thats kind of interesting. It kinds of supports my statement that the sacrifice of the mass is like and old testament sacrifice because it does not redeem anyone, your do it over and over and over again. Last post! i signed in blood, my finger hurts a little.

  78. Eric, Demaria says the new testament sacraments replace the old testament sacrifices? Is this the Law/New law thing instead of Law/Gospel. Is this a replay of judaism?

  79. Kevin,

    imputation does not solve your problem you did not answer my questions

    let me try again

    if as you claim Hebrews 10:18 refers to Christ sacrifice and not the OT sacrifices and the you are as you claim perfected 100% by this sacrifices that is your past present and future sins are forgiven I asked you why Jesus is still interceding for you?

    And

    Is his intercessory roll any different or separate work than His work on the cross?

    And

    You said that you can offer pure offering of thanks giving, I asked given your theology that even our Spirit wrought works is still tint with sin how can your offering is pure offering when there is only one who can offer pure offering namely Christ?

    And

    I would add to my Questions Hebrew 10:26 Paul says if WE[notice Paul says we he include himself] sin deliberately there remain no sacrifice, now if the sacrifice in V 18 is speaking of Christ sacrifice then Paul is contradicting himself if he believe like you that his past present and future sins is forgiven?

    can help he understand how can you reconcile these problems?

    God Bless

  80. KEVIN January 13, 2014 at 1:40 am
    DeMaria, Admit it, the sacrament are the work of man in Romanism,

    CCC Search Result – Paragraph # 1074 (421 bytes ) preview document matches
    with the whole of liturgical and sacramental activity, for it is in the sacraments, especially in the Eucharist, that Christ Jesus works in fullness for the transformation of men

    thats not free grace.

    Grace is free, to those who merit it by keeping the Commandments. Grace is provisionally bestowed upon all who do the will of God.

    Is mercy, grace? Here is what Scripture says:

    Deuteronomy 5:10
    And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

    Its the opposite. the reformers had a cow over this preparation and work before a sacramnet to earn an increase in grace. It aint free. Putting sacrificial efficacy up in the place of the atonement and justification by simple faith is a different gospel.

    Reformation doctrine is a false gospel of man. It is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ:
    Matthew 25:31-46
    King James Version (KJV)
    31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

    32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

    33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

    34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

    35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

    36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

    37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

    38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

    39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

    40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

    41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

    42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

    43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

    44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

    45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

    46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

    All the Protestant religions are unbiblical.

  81. Kevin,

    you said:

    Eric, Demaria says the new testament sacraments replace the old testament sacrifices? Is this the Law/New law thing instead of Law/Gospel. Is this a replay of judaism?

    Me

    This is silly why are you asking Eric ask Catholics so they give you right answers I’m thinking WOSBALD

    if you want to understand for example Israel’s policy these days would you ask the Palestinians to give you their unbiased true explanation????

  82. KEVIN January 13, 2014 at 3:10 am
    Eric, Demaria says the new testament sacraments replace the old testament sacrifices?

    Hebrews 10:
    8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

    9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

    Is this the Law/New law thing instead of Law/Gospel.

    The New Law of Christ is the Gospel.

    Is this a replay of judaism?

    Have you not read in Scripture?
    Romans 2:28-29
    King James Version (KJV)
    28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

    29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

    Catholics are the New Jews. And the Church is the Heavenly Jerusalem:
    Hebrews 12:22-23
    King James Version (KJV)
    22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

    23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

    The Protestant religions are unbiblical.

  83. He said it is finished. Remember. Remember 10:14 said he perfected us. If he perfected us why do you have to perform works of a sacrament to purchase an increase of grace. The verdict has been rendered. 2 Corinthians 5:21, 1 Corinthians 1:30, Philippians 3:9, Romans 5:12-19, Isaiah 53. if you can understand these verses you’ll understand imputation. Christ is simply carrying out his priestly work in heaven of applying his merits in our place. Our position is secure and the verdict is rendered. There is no condemnation for those in Christ. not a statement about nature of ontology but a judgment rendered. “Who can bring a charge against God’s elect .” It is God who justifies” All law court language. 1 John 1:9 if we confess our sin he is faithful to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Getting our feet washed. Its for our benefit not to appease God. Christ did that.

  84. Wassan, trust me Eric knows more about your religion than you do. and my question to him is rhetorical. The New covenant draws the distinction between Law and gospel not Law and new Law. ” Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to all those who believe. I’ve always said Romanism is a replay of judaism. Your sacraments are a replay of old testament sacrifices as DeMaria said. Look at your twisted sacrifice of the mass, it is an old testament sacrifice that accomplishes nothing just like the old testament sacrifice. It is an offering by a priest on an altar of our Lord that has to be done over and over just like an old testament sacrifice, which couldn’t save anyone. It can’t save anyone because it is imperfect. And even though Paul excludes works as a means of attaining favor with God, your mass is a work on the part of a believer to purchase an increase in justice and grace for you and your dead friends.and it is the person offering himself up to atone for his sins. Christ’s sacrifice was perfect and did what it was supposed to do atoned for our sin. you make christ’s perfect sufficient, one time sacrifice imperfect. Because you have to do it again and again and still not scrub off enough temporal punishment to keep you out of purgatory. Hebrews, among other scriptures is clear it was done once and it perfected us. Paul says he is never to die again, no immolation.

  85. DeMaria, I thought we agreed to stop conversing.” Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”It comes through faith bro not some new Law. For Paul the Law and Gospel were an antithesis. Paul said he died to the Law. The law only brought forth the knowledge of sin, it was never intended to save. It came 430 years after the promise and he said didn’t negate the promise. The Gospel has always been the way of salvation and it is by faith. Abraham is the father of those who are of faith. the law could not save and your new law cannot save.

  86. KEVIN January 13, 2014 at 6:38 am
    He said it is finished. Remember.

    His part was finished. We still have our part to play:
    John 14:12
    Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

    Remember 10:14 said he perfected us. If he perfected us why do you have to perform works of a sacrament to purchase an increase of grace. The verdict has been rendered.

    To say that He “perfected us” means that He washed us of sin:
    Acts 22:16
    And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

    However, He instituted the Sacraments because He knew that we would continue to sin.
    1 John 1:9
    If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    Or do you no longer sin?
    1 John 1:10
    If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

    2 Corinthians 5:21, 1 Corinthians 1:30, Philippians 3:9, Romans 5:12-19, Isaiah 53. if you can understand these verses you’ll understand imputation.

    I understand those verses and you are mistaken, imputation is a Protestant error.
    2 Corinthians 5:21
    King James Version (KJV)
    21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    That simply means that Christ offered Himself to the Father in expiation for our sins.
    1 Corinthians 1:30
    King James Version (KJV)
    30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

    This means that those who are baptized are born again members of the Body of Christ.

    Philippians 3:9
    King James Version (KJV)
    9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

    This means that if you are baptized then Christ lives in you.

    Romans 5:12-19
    King James Version (KJV)
    12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    Adam sinned and death entered the world.

    13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

    Before Moses instituted the Law, men sinned, but there was no religious system to account for sin.

    14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

    Yet, even those men who had not sinned, suffered the penalty of sin, which is death.

    15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

    But Jesus Christ came into the world and gave the gift of eternal life to those who believe Him.

    16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

    One man sinned and all mankind lost the gift of natural righteousness. But Christ’s gift of justification is free to all who accept it.

    17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

    But those who receive Christ with faith, will receive the gift of eternal life.

    18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

    So, by the sin of one man, all mankind suffered. But by the righteousness of One, the gift is given to all who want to turn to Him and live.

    19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

    By one man’s sin, all mankind lost the gift of natural righteousness. But by the obedience of One, many men who turn to Him will be made righteous.

    Isaiah 53

    Simply says that Christ suffered and died in offering for our sins.

    Christ is simply carrying out his priestly work in heaven of applying his merits in our place.

    True.

    Our position is secure and the verdict is rendered.

    You deny the severity of God. God is just. But God is also severe:
    2 Corinthians 5:10-12
    King James Version (KJV)
    10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

    11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

    12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.

    There is no condemnation for those in Christ.

    Because they keep the commandments. Read the whole verse in context:
    Romans 8
    King James Version (KJV)
    8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

    3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

    4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

    6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

    7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

    9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

    There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ, IF THEY WALK IN THE SPIRIT. There is no condemnation to those in Christ, IF THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELLS IN YOU.

    not a statement about nature of ontology but a judgment rendered. “Who can bring a charge against God’s elect .” It is God who justifies” All law court language. 1 John 1:9 if we confess our sin he is faithful to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Getting our feet washed. Its for our benefit not to appease God. Christ did that.

    God doesn’t forgive anyone who has not first repented. God is not a liar. He doesn’t cover up sins. He doesn’t whitewash evil. God is righteous and if you want to get into heaven, you had better be as righteous as He is:
    1 John 3:9-11
    King James Version (KJV)
    9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

    11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

    You will not be judged righteous unless you keep the Commandments. That is true forensics. That is true justice. That is God’s courtroom. We will all stand before the Judgment Seat. ALL.

    Sincerely,

    De Maria

  87. KEVIN January 13, 2014 at 7:22 am
    DeMaria, I thought we agreed to stop conversing.”

    You said you could not converse with me any longer. I understand. I reserve the right to respond to anyone. Including you.

    Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

    Christ is the end of the Old Testament. But Christ is our Law:
    Galatians 6:2
    Bear ye one another’s burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

    ”It comes through faith bro not some new Law.

    Exactly! It comes through faith, if you but have the faith to believe the promises of Christ in the Sacraments. If you but have the faith to do the will of God unto salvation.

    For Paul the Law and Gospel were an antithesis.

    That depends upon what you mean by “the Law”. St. Paul meant various things with that term and it can be understood only in context of the Traditions of the Catholic Church.

    Romans 7:12
    Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

    Paul said he died to the Law.

    Galatians 2:19
    King James Version (KJV)
    19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

    Lol! You have misunderstood completely. St. Paul says that he died to the law by obeying the law. He died to the commandments by obeying the commandments. Because he, living by the spirit, was exempt of the law.

    Example: If the speed limit is 70mph and you drive 90 mph. You are subject to the law. But if you drive 60 mph, the law does not pertain to you. You are dead to the law, as it were.

    Therefore, we, who are in Christ, are dead to the law. Because we who are in Christ, obey the Word of God in His Commandments.

    The law only brought forth the knowledge of sin, it was never intended to save. It came 430 years after the promise and he said didn’t negate the promise. The Gospel has always been the way of salvation and it is by faith.

    The Gospel is the way of salvation if you submit to the Sacraments. But if you don’t, you might as well be a Jew or a Muslim. You will be subject to the final Judgment. Judgment comes first to the Church, through the Sacraments. It is by the Sacraments that we walk upon Mount Sion with the souls of men made perfect.

    Abraham is the father of those who are of faith. the law could not save and your new law cannot save.

    The Old Testament could not save. But the Sacraments do save:
    1 Peter 3:21
    The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

  88. DeMaria, Hebrews 9:12 says he obtained eternal redemption. Its a done deal. He is not the great assister but he accomplished thru his death exactly what he was sent to accomplish. When he intercedes is heaven on my behalf, he is presenting a perfect finished sacrifice or else he couldn’t intercede o my part. The father does all that Son asks, the Scripture is clear. Hebrews says He is able to save to the uttermost this who draw near. He isn’t interceding for those who aren’t drawing near. And he didn’t die to assist someone thru secondary causes to atone for their own sins. He obtained eternal redemption, and i live the life of faith in this perfect finished act. 1 John 2:25 ” and this is the promise which he made to us :eternal life. He can’t break his promise. Solo fide!

  89. KEVIN January 13, 2014 at 9:42 am
    DeMaria, Hebrews 9:12 says he obtained eternal redemption. Its a done deal. He is not the great assister but he accomplished thru his death exactly what he was sent to accomplish.

    True. He died upon the Cross to give us an example that we should follow his steps:
    1 Peter 2:21
    For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

    Therefore, we must turn to Him if we want to live with Him.
    2 Corinthians 5:15
    And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

    Christ died for all in order that those who live would turn to him and be saved.

    When he intercedes is heaven on my behalf, he is presenting a perfect finished sacrifice or else he couldn’t intercede o my part.

    You also need to join Him and present yourself as a sacrifice with Him:
    Romans 12:1
    I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

    1 Corinthians 11:26
    For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.

    The father does all that Son asks, the Scripture is clear.

    True.

    Hebrews says He is able to save to the uttermost this who draw near.

    I thought you said that salvation was unconditional. But you are here adding the work of “drawing near”.

    He isn’t interceding for those who aren’t drawing near.

    I think He is interceding for all of mankind. Whether they draw near or not.

    And he didn’t die to assist someone thru secondary causes to atone for their own sins.

    That is true. The Sacraments are not secondary causes. He works through them, directly.

    He obtained eternal redemption, and i live the life of faith in this perfect finished act.

    Whether you do or not, is God’s to judge. But since you have rejected the Church, you have put yourself in the precarious position of rejecting God and claiming salvation over and above His authority:

    Matt 10:40 40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

    1 John 2:25 ” and this is the promise which he made to us :eternal life. He can’t break his promise. Solo fide!

    Amen! He can not break His promise:

    John 6:54
    Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

  90. Hmm? That didn’t look right.

    KEVIN January 13, 2014 at 9:42 am
    DeMaria, Hebrews 9:12 says he obtained eternal redemption. Its a done deal. He is not the great assister but he accomplished thru his death exactly what he was sent to accomplish.

    True. He died upon the Cross to give us an example that we should follow his steps:
    1 Peter 2:21
    For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

    Therefore, we must turn to Him if we want to live with Him.
    2 Corinthians 5:15
    And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

    Christ died for all in order that those who live would turn to him and be saved.

    When he intercedes is heaven on my behalf, he is presenting a perfect finished sacrifice or else he couldn’t intercede o my part.

    You also need to join Him and present yourself as a sacrifice with Him:
    Romans 12:1
    I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

    1 Corinthians 11:26
    For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.

    The father does all that Son asks, the Scripture is clear.

    True.

    Hebrews says He is able to save to the uttermost this who draw near.

    I thought you said that salvation was unconditional. But you are here adding the work of “drawing near”.

    He isn’t interceding for those who aren’t drawing near.

    I think He is interceding for all of mankind. Whether they draw near or not.

    And he didn’t die to assist someone thru secondary causes to atone for their own sins.

    That is true. The Sacraments are not secondary causes. He works through them, directly.

    He obtained eternal redemption, and i live the life of faith in this perfect finished act.

    Whether you do or not, is God’s to judge. But since you have rejected the Church, you have put yourself in the precarious position of rejecting God and claiming salvation over and above His authority:

    Matt 10:40 40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

    1 John 2:25 ” and this is the promise which he made to us :eternal life. He can’t break his promise. Solo fide!

    Amen! He can not break His promise:

    John 6:54
    Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

    That should be a bit more readable. Sorry for the duplicate.

  91. DeMaria, it doesn’t say he left us and example it says he obtained eternal redemption! You cut of the end of Romans 12:1 which is your reasonable service of worship. Thats not us making sacrifice for our sins. Cmon. Ya as often as you do this you partake of the elements you proclaim his death tip he comes. Its a meal at a table not a sacrifice on an altar. We take the lord’s supper by faith, the word, and we have his Spirit. we don’t make atonement for our sins through a repeated sacrifice. Salvation is unconditional. But the one who is truly saved will confess sins and draw near to God through prayer and thanksgiving. This is descriptive of a christian. the sacraments are secondary causes. They are actuated through a priest. The Catholic priest usurps the authority of Christ and the Spirit by acting as their regent. The church should be the recipient of God’s grace not the dispenser of it. Its the Spirit that delivers the victory spoils of Christ not the church. I have not rejected God’s church. Whereever the gospel is preached rightly and the sacraments distributed rightly, there is the church.

  92. KEVIN January 13, 2014 at 11:35 am
    DeMaria, it doesn’t say he left us and example it says he obtained eternal redemption!

    We use all of Scripture.1 Peter 2:21 says, “For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:”

    You cut of the end of Romans 12:1 which is your reasonable service of worship.

    That is correct. Our reasonable service is to worship God according to the parameters He set.

    Hebrews 10:25-31
    King James Version (KJV)
    25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

    26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

    27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

    28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

    31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

    Thats not us making sacrifice for our sins. Cmon.

    You are reading into Scripture your presuppositions. But the New Testament was written based upon the doctrines of the Catholic Church.

    Ya as often as you do this you partake of the elements you proclaim his death tip he comes. Its a meal at a table not a sacrifice on an altar.

    It is the New Testament Passover:

    1 Corinthians 5:7
    Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

    The New Testament Passover is as much a practical sacrifice as the Old Testament Passover. The difference is that the New Testament Passover actually washes away sin.

    We take the lord’s supper by faith, the word, and we have his Spirit. we don’t make atonement for our sins through a repeated sacrifice.

    Scripture says:

    Acts 26:20
    But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

    Salvation is unconditional.

    If that were true, you wouldn’t even need faith. But salvation is conditional. Without faith it is impossible to please God. And without works, faith is dead.

    James 2:26
    For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    But the one who is truly saved will confess sins and draw near to God through prayer and thanksgiving.

    That is true.

    This is descriptive of a christian. the sacraments are secondary causes.

    The sacraments are the works of God.

    They are actuated through a priest. The Catholic priest usurps the authority of Christ and the Spirit by acting as their regent. The church should be the recipient of God’s grace not the dispenser of it. Its the Spirit that delivers the victory spoils of Christ not the church. I have not rejected God’s church. Whereever the gospel is preached rightly and the sacraments distributed rightly, there is the church.

    You have a great deal of truth mixed with error in that statement. The fact is that God does dispense his grace through the sacraments of the Catholic Church. That is true whether you like it or not.

    Acts 2:38
    Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

  93. DeMaria, you didn’t really say that faith is a work, Paul says to the one who does not work but believes. Faith can’t be a work, he eliminates all works. you guys are responsible for everything, why do you need Jesus?

  94. KEVIN January 13, 2014 at 5:09 pm
    DeMaria, you didn’t really say that faith is a work, Paul says to the one who does not work but believes. Faith can’t be a work,

    1. I said:

    If that were true, you wouldn’t even need faith. But salvation is conditional. Without faith it is impossible to please God. And without works, faith is dead.

    James 2:26
    For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    2. Faith is an act of the will. In that sense, faith is a work.

    he eliminates all works.

    No, he doesn’t. He knows that only those who do the works of God are saved by God.

    Romans 2:13
    King James Version (KJV)
    13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

    1 Corinthians 6:8-10
    King James Version (KJV)
    8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.

    9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

    10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

    Romans 13:8-11
    King James Version (KJV)
    8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

    9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

    11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

    you guys are responsible for everything, why do you need Jesus?

    Well, we need him more than you. Because you claim you are already saved. Therefore, you don’t need Him anymore. If you ever needed Him at all, since you saved yourself by your faith alone.

    But we need Him because we are yet on the path of righteousness, seeking His perfection by His loving Word through the washing of the Spirit in His Sacraments.

    Sincerely,

    De Maria

  95. DeMaria, What does Paul mean” to the one who does not work” in romans 4:5? What does that mean to you?

  96. KEVIN January 13, 2014 at 6:16 pm
    DeMaria, What does Paul mean” to the one who does not work” in romans 4:5? What does that mean to you?

    1. It is a reflection on the Sacraments.
    2. It is a reference to King David’s confession to the Prophet Nathan.

    Let us reflect upon this in context.

    Romans 3
    King James Version (KJV)
    21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

    Jesus Christ is the righteousness of God and He has been made manifest in that He has appeared in the flesh.

    22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

    Here, is a play on words. First he refers to Jesus Christ is the righteousness of God. But now he refers to God’s justice as the righteousness of God. And this justice is achieved by the “faith of Jesus Christ”. The faith of Jesus Christ means the rituals which Jesus Christ has established. And this righteousness of God is bestowed on them that believe and obey Jesus Christ.

    23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    For all have sinned, is a reference to Jew and Gentile. The word “all” is not absolute in this sense. Because in Romans 5:14, St. Paul reveals that not all have sinned in the similitude of Adam’s transgression.

    24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

    Being justified freely by his grace is a reference to those who have repented of their sins and been baptized. They have received the GIFT of the Holy Spirit.

    The redemption that is in Christ Jesus, is a reference to membership in the church which is his body. Those who are redeemed are joined to the church.

    25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

    This one is one that most Protestants miss. Note that the sins which are remitted are those in the past. This is why Christ established the sacrament of reconciliation. This is the sacrament which remits those sins which are committed after baptism.

    Jesus Christ is he whom God set forth as our propitiation. Propitiation meaning that he paid for our sins.

    26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

    Notice that God set him forth as payment for our sins and at the same time declare him righteous.

    27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

    Now he asks, “where is boasting?” What is he talking about? Well, he is talking about the fact that there is nothing we could do to bring about the manifestation of Jesus Christ in the flesh. There is nothing that we could do to bring about the establishment of the sacraments.

    At this point, he hasn’t mentioned Abraham yet. He is simply speaking about the difference between the old and new Testaments.

    28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

    Now he says, a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. In the context in which he is speaking, he means that we are justified by the faith of Christ, that is to say, by the sacraments, and not by the deeds of the Old Testament law .

    29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

    30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

    31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

    He is comparing Christian Gentiles to non-Christian Jews. And he says that both will be justified by faith. Because the Jews that have faith in God will keep the Commandments. And the Christians who have faith in Christ, will also keep the Commandments.

    There were no chapter separations in the original texts, so this stock continues.

    Romans 4
    King James Version (KJV)
    1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

    Now he begins to speak about Abraham. Why? Because Abraham was justified apart from the works of the law. He was justified apart from the law of Moses, because Moses had not yet been born. Therefore, Abraham was not obeying a written law. But, was he obeying God before he was justified? Or do you begin to obey God after he was justified?

    Scripture gives you the answer:
    Genesis 26:5
    Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

    Hebrews 11:8
    By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

    So, Abraham was obedient before he was justified. God does not justify the disobedient.

    2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

    Knowing then, that Abraham was not meeting the obligations of a law set forth set forth in stone, we know that Abraham was not justified by the law of Moses.

    3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

    This is very interesting. This verse to which he refers is first mentioned in Genesis 15:6. But St. James adds a very important detail to this verse:

    James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
    24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

    It turns out that the verse in Genesis 15:6 was a prophecy of what would happen when Abraham offered Isaac upon the altar. This is when Abraham was justified because he proved his faith by his works.

    4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

    This, is a reference to the fact that the Jews were under contract with God. They had made an agreement:

    Exodus 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
    6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
    7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the Lord commanded him.
    8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the Lord hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the Lord.

    Therefore, they expected a reward for compliance and obedience to the law of God.

    5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

    7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

    8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

    This is, of course, in reference to King David and his affair with Bathsheba. King David confesses his sin to the Prophet Nathan and the Prophet Nathan as God’s ambassador, declares to him that he has been forgiven. This instance is a very clear foreshadowing of the sacrament of reconciliation. In the sacrament of reconciliation, we are blessed by God, forgiven of our sins apart from any righteous works. We present ourselves to God in the church and submit to his sacraments believing in his promises. We can’t wash our souls of sin. We believe that he can and that he has promised to do that.

    Therefore, Romans 4:5 is a reference to the sacraments of the Catholic Church.

    Sincerely,

    De Maria

  97. Demaria, How can the phrase “to the one who does not work” be a reflection on the sacraments. The sacrament is a work on the part of the participant ( ex opere operato)?

  98. Ex opere operate means “from the action performed”. Referring to the “bath of water”. When the action of washing by water is performed, God washes our souls. It is not because of the merits or works of the individual or the priest.

    Ex opera operate is a Latin phrase meaning “from the work done” referring to the efficacy of the Sacraments deriving from the action of the Sacrament as opposed to the merits or holiness of the priest, minister, or participant.

    Sincerely,

    De Maria

  99. Sorry, I neglected to answer the question:

    KEVIN January 14, 2014 at 2:53 pm
    Demaria, How can the phrase “to the one who does not work” be a reflection on the sacraments.

    In the sacraments we present ourselves before Christ with the attitude of faith in His promises. There are no works on our part. We participate with anticipation that He will work and cleanse us of our sins.

    The sacrament is a work on the part of the participant ( ex opere operate)?

    Nope. It is God’s work. The Sacraments are God’s works. There is no way that we can cleanse our souls of sin. Only God can do that.

    Sincerely,

    De Maria

  100. Yay! 700!!!

  101. Eric, did you read DeMaria’s last phrase Born Again!

  102. KEVIN January 15, 2014 at 5:17 am
    Eric, did you read DeMaria’s last phrase Born Again!

    That is Catholic Doctrine. When we are baptized, we are born again in Christ.

  103. DeMaria, go read Galations 3;2-5 Paul says we not only receive the Spirit by hearing with faith ( not baptism) but all of salvation and our justification is by faith apart for any works or Law. Di you receive v2, have you begun an are now being perfected v3, He who provides you and works miracles among you v5, all by faith in distinct contradiction to any Law, even your Old testament sacraments( sacrifices) which are imperfect and cannot save. ” All of salvation i shy faith.

  104. KEVIN January 16, 2014 at 8:34 am
    DeMaria, go read Galations 3;2-5 Paul says we not only receive the Spirit by hearing with faith ( not baptism) but all of salvation and our justification is by faith apart for any works or Law. Di you receive v2, have you begun an are now being perfected v3, He who provides you and works miracles among you v5, all by faith in distinct contradiction to any Law, even your Old testament sacraments( sacrifices) which are imperfect and cannot save. ” All of salvation i shy faith.

    2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?

    St. Paul wants to know, did they receive the Holy Spirit by keeping the Old Law and its sacrifices, or by believing the Gospel and observing its Sacraments?

    3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?

    Then he bluntly asks, “are you so stupid, that you have received the Spirit through faith in Christ by the Sacraments, but you would rather return to the Covenant of works?

    4 Have you suffered so much for nothing–if it really was for nothing?

    Have you worked so hard in vain?

    5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

    Does God give you His Holy Spirit and work miracles in your midst because of the Old Covenant or because of the Gospel?

    6 Consider Abraham: “He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

    Remember that Abraham was justified because he believed God. You also, when you approach the Sacraments will be justified by your faith in God’s promises.

    This is confirmed elsewhere when the Apostle says:
    Rom 4:22 This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness–for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

    If we believe Jesus, we will submit to Him in the Sacraments and have our sins washed away, calling on His name.

    Sincerely,

    De Maria

  105. DeMaria, you keep making things up. Can you show me in Galations 3 where sacraments are mentioned? It says the Spirit simply comes to us thru hearing with faith. There is no mention of sacrifices of the New law.

  106. KEVIN January 17, 2014 at 3:36 am
    DeMaria, you keep making things up. Can you show me in Galations 3 where sacraments are mentioned? It says the Spirit simply comes to us thru hearing with faith.

    1. If that were all it said, it would knock out Sola Scriptura, right off the bat.
    2. Galatians 3
    King James Version (KJV)
    1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

    St. Paul chastises the Galatians for not obeying. Notice on important it is to obey. What is it that they have not obeyed. The truth of Jesus Christ.

    The truth of Jesus Christ is not the person of Jesus Christ. It is the truth which Jesus Christ has set forth. And that truth is that they must obey his new law. And that is the law of the sacraments.

    2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

    So he asks the Galatians a question. Did they think that they received the Spirit of God by obeying the Old Testament law or by obeying the truth which they heard proclaimed in the faith of Christ?

    He is comparing the Old Testament to the New. And the New Testament differs from the Old and the elimination of the sacrifices and the ordinances and the installation of the sacraments of faith.

    3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

    So, he chastises them again because they allowed the Judaizers to so easily convince them that they needed to go back to the works of the Old Testament.

    4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

    So he says that it may yet not be too late. Pay close attention though, because according to Protestant doctrine he is talking to people who are absolutely saved. He is speaking to saved believers who were perfected in the spirit by the hearing of faith.

    The term “hearing of faith” knocks Sola Scriptura out of the park.

    5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

    So he asks again in a different way. The priest who gave you the spirit and worked the miracles amongst you (those miracles being the ones brought by the sacraments) did he do it by the Old Testament? Or by the sacraments of the New Testament?

    6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

    Here he compares the declaration of God towards Abraham’s righteousness to that which is accorded us who believe and submit to the sacraments. Because in the sacraments we present ourselves with complete faith in Christ and in his promises.

    7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

    And he repeats it again. Because we approach the sacraments with complete faith in Christ, we are imitating the faith of Abraham.

    8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

    The heathen are the ancestors of the people who St. Paul is addressing. And they are now justified by presenting themselves with complete faith in God’s promises and submitting to the sacraments of Jesus Christ.

    9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

    Therefore, those who presented themselves with faith are blessed as Abraham was blessed.

    10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

    Those who consider themselves Jews and are circumcised, are under the curse of the law. Today it would be called a contractual penalty. The Jews were under contract with God. If they obeyed God would reward them. If they disobeyed, they would be cursed.

    That should be enough to show you that the Scriptures were written by the Catholic Church and are in complete accordance with Catholic Doctrine.

    There is no mention of sacrifices of the New law.

    there is only one sacrifice in the New Testament. It is the once for all sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

    Sincerely,

    De Maria

  107. DeMaria, do you believe by doing a sacrament you earn an increase in grace?

  108. DeMaria, The whole passage of Galatians 3:1-6 is about obedience not having anything to do with receiving the Spirit, but hearing with faith. The whole point of this passage is Paul is telling them , look you idiots you begin by faith and want to to now add works. Then he says having begun by the Spirit, your now going to be justified by works in some way. This is devastating to the Roman position. The whole of salvation is a life of faith. You see DeMaria, for the Reformers the issue wasn’t merit but the location of merit. Notice in Ephesians 2::8, He again eliminates all works and effort of ourselves. He separates it out. Then in 2:10 he brings it in as the fruit of justification. You say he chastise them for not obeying, but its the exact opposite, he is chastise them for leaving faith to be justified by obedience in some way. You have to understand DeMaria that Paul wrote Galatians to deal with those like yourself that were trying to undermine justification by faith alone. Faith is trust.

  109. DeMaria, can you show me the word sacrament in Galatians 3, I’m having a hard time finding it?

  110. KEVIN January 28, 2014 at 5:12 am
    DeMaria, do you believe by doing a sacrament you earn an increase in grace?

    No. The sacraments are fountains of grace wherein Jesus Christ meets us today. When Jesus walked the earth, people would come to him and ask for healing and other favors. Those healings were pre-figurings of the sacraments. The people came to Jesus with faith did not
    earn the grace he gave them. It is with this disposition that we approach the sacraments.

  111. KEVIN January 28, 2014 at 5:25 am
    DeMaria, The whole passage of Galatians 3:1-6 is about obedience not having anything to do with receiving the Spirit, but hearing with faith.

    Not having anything to do with receiving the Spirit? St. Paul’s entire point is that it is by hearing with faith that we receive the spirit.

    Galatians 3:2
    King James Version (KJV)
    2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

    The whole point of this passage is Paul is telling them , look you idiots you begin by faith and want to to now add works. Then he says having begun by the Spirit, your now going to be justified by works in some way. This is devastating to the Roman position.

    Let’s go to the passage verse by verse:

    Galatians 3:1-6
    King James Version (KJV)
    1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth,

    Here St. Paul is referring to the obedience of faith.

    before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

    He is saying that if you believe in Christ you must obey him:

    Hebrews 5:9
    And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

    This question leads us to the obvious answer that we receive the spirit by the hearing of faith.

    3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit,

    He chastises them because they began in the spirit, that is, they began in baptism. It is by baptism that they received the Spirit of God. Now, baptism is not a work of man. It is the work of God. It is in baptism that we become new creatures born again in Christ.

    are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

    He asked them if they are now made perfect by the flesh because they are considering circumcision. But circumcision has been replaced by baptism.

    4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

    The Galatians have suffered much persecution for the sake of Christ. And he warns them that it could be in vain.

    5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

    He therefore that ministereth- is a reference to the priests. It is they who minister the spirit to their congregation through the sacraments. The works of the law have been nailed to the cross. The hearing of faith – is a reference to the faith of Jesus Christ, in other words, to the establishment of the church and the sacraments which are administered through the church.

    6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
    when we submit to the sacraments, we take upon ourselves Abraham’s disposition of faith. This is why we are the children of Abraham. Because we believe God’s promises to those who come before him in the sacraments:

    Acts 2:38-39
    King James Version (KJV)
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

    The whole of salvation is a life of faith.

    That is correct. But a life of faith is not a life of dissipation. It is a life of good works done in faith. It is a life of obedience to God.

    You see DeMaria, for the Reformers the issue wasn’t merit but the location of merit.

    for Catholics the issue isn’t self-righteous judgment. For Catholics, is God who judges the merit of our faith and our works.

    NNotice in Ephesians 2::8, He again eliminates all works and effort of ourselves. He separates it out. Then in 2:10 he brings it in as the fruit of justification.

    Focus on verse one 10 for a minute:

    Ephesians 2:8-10
    King James Version (KJV)
    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus

    The bolded words above are a double entendre, every creature is created in Christ Jesus. If you don’t believe me let me prove it to you from the word of God:
    John 1:2-4
    King James Version (KJV)
    2 The same was in the beginning with God.

    3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

    Colossians 1:16
    For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    The good works which God has ordained from before are a reference to the 10 Commandments. It is these good works in which we should walk and should have been walking from the time that God created us.

    Therefore, it is not simply those who CLAIM to have faith who are justified. It is those who do the works of God, it is they who are justified. Not by their works but by the mercy of God which is bestowed unto all who keep the commandments:

    Exodus 20:6
    King James Version (KJV)
    6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

    You say he chastise them for not obeying, but its the exact opposite, he is chastise them for leaving faith to be justified by obedience in some way.

    St. Paul consistently chastises the disobedient:

    Titus 1:16
    They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

    You have to understand DeMaria that Paul wrote Galatians to deal with those like yourself that were trying to undermine justification by faith alone.

    Scripture does not teach justification by faith alone. It is precisely the opposite. Scripture condemns faith alone:

    James 2:24
    Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

    Faith is trust.

    That is true. And we trust that God will keep his promises when we come before him in faith in the sacraments of Jesus Christ.

  112. KEVIN January 28, 2014 at 5:27 am
    DeMaria, can you show me the word sacrament in Galatians 3, I’m having a hard time finding it?

    The word sacrament is not explicitly mentioned. But it is described in these verses:

    Galatians 3
    King James Version (KJV)
    2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

    The works of the law – meaning the Old Testament. The hearing of faith – meaning the New Testament with its rites and rituals established by Jesus Christ. That includes the sacraments.

    3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

    Beginning in the spirit – is a reference to the sacrament of baptism when we receive the Holy Spirit and are enrolled in the church.

    By the flesh – is a reference to circumcision which is void in the New Testament. It is of no value to Christians.

    4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
    5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

    Minister to you the spirit – is a reference to the priest who administers the sacraments through which we receive the grace of the Holy Spirit.

    Work miracles among you – is a reference to the miracles which occur in the sacraments. In particular, the washing of regeneration and new birth of baptism. The seal of God in confirmation. Transubstantiation of the bread and wine in the Eucharist. The healing of the soul in reconciliation and anointing. The one flesh union of matrimony. And the gift received by the laying on of hands of the Presbytery.

    6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
    7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
    8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
    9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

    This describes the disposition with which we approach the sacraments. And it explains why all who approach the sacraments with faith are the children of Abraham.

    The entire chapter is about the Sacraments. You don’t understand what St. Paul is saying because you rejected the Traditions of Jesus Christ upon which he bases all his Teachings.

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