1. As yes, the 2K dialgoues – now those were some interesting conversations. So I’m curious – now that you are in a 1K church how does this affect your outlook on kingdoms and cultures?


  2. I think that if welders won’t kiss Francis’s ring they should lose their pensions. . . .

    Actually, there is more room in Rome for 2K sympathies than one might think, despite the overlap of the kingdoms in the history of the Church. I mean, I still believe that there are two kingdoms with two distinct aims that are furthered by two distinct forms of authority. The biggest difference is that now that Sola Scriptura is off the table, the spiritual kingdom can speak to cultural issues in a way that it cannot in Protestantism.

  3. Which is why some think Protestant 2k would be superior to any sort of Catholic 2k. Once the spiritual kingdom starts speaking to cultural issues, poof, you’ve gone neo-Calvinist.

    ps Andrew, it’s fun rhetorically, but there is no 1k church. Everybody after Augustine is 2k. The questions are 1) what is the nature of those two kingdoms and 2) how to they relate (or not) to one another? The answers are as wildly differed as Catholics imagine Protestantism is denominated. And have you noticed how Catholic logic can resemble theonomic logic? Just as the former needs an infallible source beyond the Bible to settle ecclesiastical dispute, the latter needs one beyond general revelation to order civil life. The naivete in both cases can be staggering.

  4. it’s fun rhetorically, but there is no 1k church


    In the previous thread I talked about Paul Johnson’s insights into the centralization of ecclesiastical structures after Roman civil authority vanished in the 5th century. Johnson says that in the West, the role of the state became a function of the church. Johnson points out that this was for practical rather than theological reasons – some institution had to step up and provide many of the functions that the previous civil authority had performed. If there is no distinct civil authority and the role that the state generally performs becomes a function of the church then this is 1K to my mind. This 1K kind of situation became the legacy of the Early Middle Ages which eventually clashes with the new thinking of emerging nation states in the High and Late Middle Ages. Augustine’s theory on the kingdoms of God/man are not worked out in the period after his death. To Johnson’s point, I don’t think there is any way they could have been – the church just had other more pressing matters to deal with – like holding society together.

    Johnson says that in the East the role of the church became a function of the state. In the East there was a distinct civil authority as distinct from the ecclesiastical authority, so it’s not 1K. But if the church answered to the state then maybe it’s 1.5K?

  5. The biggest difference is that now that Sola Scriptura is off the table, the spiritual kingdom can speak to cultural issues in a way that it cannot in Protestantism.

    Yes, that definitely makes sense. If the Church’s role is not defined by Scripture alone then the possibilities for the Church’s involvement in culture are just endless.

  6. Andrew, but even when the two institutions and their functions are confused to whatever extent there remains the essential conception of two institutions–church and state. Again, 1k is rhetorically fun, just conceptually misleading since nobody really thinks either church or state disappears in this age.

  7. How would you justify the healings of the sick by pastor benny hinn.

  8. Royston, In every age there are people willing to buy and men willing to sell snake oil. Benny’s just happens to have gotta international attention.. so much so that the IRS got involved.

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